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The Zombocom Problem

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Re: The Zombocom Problem

#21

Post by dylan604 »

btilly wrote: post #8
cyanydeez wrote: post #2

Unfortunately, the rarity of the super product means this tactic is useless. Step 1. Be born with silver spoon in mouth

Just because success is unlikely, we shouldn't try for it? There are a lot of ideas that sound good. Far fewer that are good. Being able to tell the difference makes it much more likely that you're on a plausible path to success. Another way to see the point is to remember that it is better to make something that a few people really want than that a lot of people would like a little bit. An app is more likely to fit…

There's a lot of useful learning in failing. It just helps if you can afford to fail, or be a startup and fail with other people's money

Re: The Zombocom Problem

#22

Post by tptacek »

benatkin wrote: post #18

While I’m not quite sure what we’re talking about here in terms of platforms, I’ll mention a couple of personal and team server platforms that are subject to the Zombocom Problem and a couple that aren’t. WordPress, NextCloud, and OwnCloud try to be all you need and even though they have plugins they seem subject to the Zombocom problem, because stuff gets shoehorned into a particular app. On the other hand there is…

I don't think WordPress is a good example at all. All sorts of weird stuff gets shoehorned into Excel (see the horrors of any prop trading firm). The point is: Excel is wildly successful, because before it was a platform, it was a solution to an important specific problem. Same with WordPress.

You're falling into the Zombocom trap when your initial value proposition is the same as Zombocom's.

Re: The Zombocom Problem

#23

Post by block_dagger »

equestria wrote: post #3
cyanydeez wrote: post #2

Unfortunately, the rarity of the super product means this tactic is useless. Step 1. Be born with silver spoon in mouth

I don't know. The reality is just that most business ideas don't pan out. There were hundreds of well-funded efforts to build online retailers before Amazon happened. If you're well-off, it's obviously easier to try and try again, but you're still likely to fail. I think the article is right in that if you don't have a clear business idea ("we're building a platform"), the odds are even worse. Except when they aren't…

After looking at the history of Amazon, I'm convinced their early success was due more to ruthless business practices than being an especially good book store.

Re: The Zombocom Problem

#24

Post by benatkin »

tptacek wrote: post #22
benatkin wrote: post #18

While I’m not quite sure what we’re talking about here in terms of platforms, I’ll mention a couple of personal and team server platforms that are subject to the Zombocom Problem and a couple that aren’t. WordPress, NextCloud, and OwnCloud try to be all you need and even though they have plugins they seem subject to the Zombocom problem, because stuff gets shoehorned into a particular app. On the other hand there is…

I don't think WordPress is a good example at all. All sorts of weird stuff gets shoehorned into Excel (see the horrors of any prop trading firm). The point is: Excel is wildly successful, because before it was a platform, it was a solution to an important specific problem. Same with WordPress. You're falling into the Zombocom trap when your initial value proposition is the same as Zombocom's.

Good point. WordPress is the wildly successful one of the five I mentioned.

It also did this to a certain extent, from the post:

> This customer acts as the edge-of-the-wedge for expanding into adjacent use cases (next best customer is music)

These include various types of content (VideoPress, portfolio plugins, podcasts, custom post types), shopping (WooCommerce), and forums (BuddyPress, bbPress)

However, it isn't quite a general purpose self-hosted app platform. Something limited it from continuing it going into adjacent use cases, and I think part of it is that its plugins still tie into a system that's still oriented towards blog/CMS use cases.

Re: The Zombocom Problem

#25

Post by immibis »

resonious wrote: post #10
twotwotwo wrote: post #5

I remember, when I was just starting, the founder of the company saying that if you tell him you're offering an 'engine' that's mostly saying you don't have an app. Of course, some successfully sell 'engines', but I think there's a basic truth that you need users to make your business work and make what you're building better and battle-hardened, and to get those users you usually have to be providing just what someo…

I've also noticed this. Seems rare to find successful frameworks that were actually built out as a framework from the start.

See also the rule of three (repetitions before you extract a function, and clients before you extract a library)

Re: The Zombocom Problem

#26

Post by spencerflem »

benatkin wrote: post #18

While I’m not quite sure what we’re talking about here in terms of platforms, I’ll mention a couple of personal and team server platforms that are subject to the Zombocom Problem and a couple that aren’t. WordPress, NextCloud, and OwnCloud try to be all you need and even though they have plugins they seem subject to the Zombocom problem, because stuff gets shoehorned into a particular app. On the other hand there is…

Sandstorm's architecture is incredible, and I love it a lot.

In my opinion though, it did kinda fall into this. It was an extremely secure and well thought out way to run concurrent user web apps. But none of the apps there were better than the proprietary Google suite or equivalent, and for self hosters, the need to explicitly port the app vs the simpler but less secure and less integrated 'just run a docker container' meant it lost there too.

There's also some limitations on what the apps can do, for example, I don't think Sandstorm has a good story for searching and indexing the contents of grains, the way other services could.

I think the killer app idea at the time was hospitals or governments with strict regulations and it didn't land well enough.

Re: The Zombocom Problem

#27

Post by jcynix »

block_dagger wrote: post #23
equestria wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. The reality is just that most business ideas don't pan out. There were hundreds of well-funded efforts to build online retailers before Amazon happened. If you're well-off, it's obviously easier to try and try again, but you're still likely to fail. I think the article is right in that if you don't have a clear business idea ("we're building a platform"), the odds are even worse. Except when they aren't…

After looking at the history of Amazon, I'm convinced their early success was due more to ruthless business practices than being an especially good book store.

Ruthless business practice? Maybe too, but very good customer support from my point as a customer, e.g.

- a shopping cart which kept my choices forever. I remember a startup clone about 20+ years ago here in Europe, whose shopping cart automatically cleared after 24 hours. That was annoying if you wanted to look for some reviews for a book later in, before deciding to buy.

- the suggestions engine "customers who bought this also bought..." was excellent 20 years ago, especially for niche products. It helped me find a lot oft interesting music, once CDs where added to the shop.

- customer comments/reviews on products. And comments on reviews, correcting facts more often than not.

Most of this started to degrade years later. No comments on reviews any more, no downvotes on bad reviews, fake reviews, "sponsored" products "suggested" in extreme, etc.

Re: The Zombocom Problem

#28

Post by immibis »

kragen wrote: post #16
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I mean by luck is that I don't think that Bezos (or the rest of us) had any special qualifications or experiences that meant that we were the only ones who could have made amzn work. He was lucky in that his situation at D.E. Shaw allowed him to do the market research that led him to the book store concept (notably after Shaw rejected it). He wasn't smarter than the rest of us. Had Shaw not asked him to research…

I see! So the luck was in happening to be paying attention to the right things, and happening to bet on them even though other equally smart people (like David Shaw) decided not to, given the same information? Thank you for explaining.

"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." You need both, and a good dice roll as well.

Re: The Zombocom Problem

#29

Post by CobrastanJorji »

This may be a bit of an old allusion, but Lotus Notes is a great example of this. Notes is fundamentally a programmable, non-relational, client/server replicated database with a UI on top of it. It's a workflow engine for accomplishing whatever business processes a company might have that can be made to keep working pretty well when the client computer is offline. It can be anything.

But it is remembered first and foremost as an email system, a feature that's fairly trivial to implement once you have a replicated database and a UI on top of it that can display lists and text. But it had to be an email system first because you can't sell something that can do anything if it doesn't do anything.

Re: The Zombocom Problem

#30

Post by benatkin »

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #29

This may be a bit of an old allusion, but Lotus Notes is a great example of this. Notes is fundamentally a programmable, non-relational, client/server replicated database with a UI on top of it. It's a workflow engine for accomplishing whatever business processes a company might have that can be made to keep working pretty well when the client computer is offline. It can be anything. But it is remembered first and fo…

Obligatory: https://www.dreamingincode.com/
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