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BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

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Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#131

Post by Cartoxy »

A Month or Two ago i tried to update the Savaldi / Sofosbuvir wikipedia by adding a section under "Controversial" but was told it was borderline vandalism to the website, which i found was a extremely bizarre response. I've copied it verbatim it below.

"""DIY Synthesis"""

At DEF CON 32, Mixæl Swan Laufer, a representative of the Four Thieves Vinegar Collective, presented a talk titled "Eradicating Hepatitis C with BioTerrorism." The presentation argued that advancements in open-source tools and chemistry enable individuals to synthesize certain medications, such as Sovaldi, at home, potentially bypassing high pharmaceutical costs.

During the talk, Laufer demonstrated tools and techniques used by the collective to synthesize pharmaceuticals, showcasing examples of the medications created. To illustrate the efficacy and accessibility of the process, he consumed a dose of Sovaldi onstage, despite not having Hepatitis C, as a symbolic gesture of the drug's claimed safety."""

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#132

Post by bhickey »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #46

I’ve procured substantial quantities of gray market (not illegal yet) medication ‘for research purposes’ and can probably safely say that it has indeed saved my life. While the medication was purchased the protocol was of my own design. Like many people with chronic conditions (LongCovid/Chronic Fatigue) I’ve long given up on doctors and only use them when I have to get a prescription. A lot of what I used are the hu…

> Bacteriophages are another interesting medical technique ignored by the west.

Phage are interesting, but they're ignored because they're worse than antibiotics by nearly every measure. They're _very_ narrow spectrum. They're immunogenic. Phage have found ex vivo applications, such as treating meat to prevent listeria.

Source: worked in an evolutionary bio lab for two years culturing and cloning phage.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#133

Post by jdyer9 »

ryao wrote: post #86

> We all know that custom, hand-made, artisan-crafted, boutique tools are always better than something factory made. A guitar, a wood chisel, a chef's knife, a built racing engine, a firearm, a suit, a pair of shoes. Given that this is so well-known, and so universally understood, it's peculiar at best that this is not seen by most people when it comes to medicine. It is however also true. I have seen this sentiment…

I'd argue it's about customisation, not as much about the process. A couple can't be made anywhere other than a factory, but we're seeing this exact thing happen more and more with custom chip design. Sure not hand made, but skewing towards custom. Previously, there were a handful of CPU's and that was it, but then GPUs came along, and now Tensor, Graviton, etc all with more specialized purpose. Maybe it won't be too long before people start building fabs in their basement, but I doubt it.

Also, custom PCB's are getting easier and easier, it seems like there's a ton of YouTube videos sponsored by and about doing custom PCB's for projects in 2024. Heck, I have an Air gradient in my house, and while it's not a custom CPU, it is a custom, relatively low volume PCB designed by (as far as I can tell) a single person, almost like an artist...

I'm not trying to add a lot to the conversation, just suggest that even chips are moving towards customisation and artisanship.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#134

Post by esqui »

theossuary wrote: post #127
gcr wrote: post #42

This could get super interesting with my country’s political situation. I could see two particular groups getting into med production: - Pregnant women who need abortion medication - Trans people who need hormones With finasteride and puberty blockers/HRT being criminalized, a lot of people in the above categories are turning to black market / DIY solutions.

It's crazy how DIY HRT and puberty blockers are now necessary to prevent trans kids from being mutilated by going through the wound puberty, then having to pay tens of thousands of dollars for reconstructive surgeries to fix maybe a fifth the damage.

Going through puberty isn't damage or mutilation, it's the process of development through which a child matures to an adult.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#135

Post by ryao »

roughly wrote: post #125
ryao wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody expressing the general sentiment of “hand made is intrinsically better than factory made” has been able to produce evidence of intrinsic superiority. The burden of proof is on those making such claims and evidence largely favors factories as producing superior products. There can be exceptions, but that is due to bad decisions rather than some intrinsic issue with the idea of a factory production line.

> I really don’t expect to learn any differently by doing further research, which I expect to be a waste of my time. I guess that settles that, then.

I had moved the shoe anecdote before I saw your reply since it fit better elsewhere and I did not want to write the same thing twice:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42544305

Anyway, why waste my time doing further research just because a random guy who convinced himself arguably inferior hand made goods are superior to factory made goods did not like hearing that? The opportunity cost is not worthwhile:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

Finally, “if you have not done enough research to agree with me, you have not done enough research” is a fallacious line of thought, since it excludes the possibility you are wrong. Coincidentally, I have an interest in this particular line of research since it is hard for me to find shoes that fit. That is why I have several pairs of the same exact shoe in my closet in the first place. In any case, I have done enough research to be comfortable. The fact that the results do not align with your beliefs is your problem.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#136

Post by mouse_ »

Cartoxy wrote: post #131

A Month or Two ago i tried to update the Savaldi / Sofosbuvir wikipedia by adding a section under "Controversial" but was told it was borderline vandalism to the website, which i found was a extremely bizarre response. I've copied it verbatim it below. """DIY Synthesis""" At DEF CON 32, Mixæl Swan Laufer, a representative of the Four Thieves Vinegar Collective, presented a talk titled "Eradicating Hepatitis C with Bi…

You have to consider the greater context. Wikipedia runs on a tight budget right now -- they don't need to go upsetting pharmaceutical giants. Gilead could totally sink them with frivolous lawsuits, even if wiki is in the right.

Your commit is dangerous to Wikipedia, therefore seen as "borderline vandalism". I'm sure the mod didn't want to go into greater detail than that because the reasoning is not fun for anybody.

Safety first, unfortunately.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#137

Post by tedunangst »

galleywest200 wrote: post #89
ryao wrote: post #86

> We all know that custom, hand-made, artisan-crafted, boutique tools are always better than something factory made. A guitar, a wood chisel, a chef's knife, a built racing engine, a firearm, a suit, a pair of shoes. Given that this is so well-known, and so universally understood, it's peculiar at best that this is not seen by most people when it comes to medicine. It is however also true. I have seen this sentiment…

In regards to objects like the guitar listed in the quote, there is a draw to how a hand-crafted item can be _unique_ due to slight imperfections. This can range from just slight imperfections in the wood to things such as believing your guitar has a unique sound. Sure the factory guitar may sound "perfect", but the only guitar that sounds like this handmade guitar is this handmade guitar.

Do I want to take medication produced by the same process that leads to unique sounding guitars?

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#138

Post by ryao »

jdyer9 wrote: post #133
ryao wrote: post #86

> We all know that custom, hand-made, artisan-crafted, boutique tools are always better than something factory made. A guitar, a wood chisel, a chef's knife, a built racing engine, a firearm, a suit, a pair of shoes. Given that this is so well-known, and so universally understood, it's peculiar at best that this is not seen by most people when it comes to medicine. It is however also true. I have seen this sentiment…

I'd argue it's about customisation, not as much about the process. A couple can't be made anywhere other than a factory, but we're seeing this exact thing happen more and more with custom chip design. Sure not hand made, but skewing towards custom. Previously, there were a handful of CPU's and that was it, but then GPUs came along, and now Tensor, Graviton, etc all with more specialized purpose. Maybe it won't be too…

We design our own PCBs at work. They are still made on a factory assembly line. The assembly line is just more flexible to be able to accommodate various designs.

That said, I think you have a good perspective and it was refreshing to read.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#139

Post by tedunangst »

ryao wrote: post #104
roughly wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High end automated processes can indeed hit extremely high tolerances, but that’s a trade-off on cost (give or take) and often not one the factory is making. I’m reminded of a story about GM, where the top execs would preview drive all the new models - except the ones that were given to the execs had been hand-tuned by engineers to fix the manufacturing slop, so the GM brass was convinced their cars were much better…

I am reminded of the following story: https://www.1factory.com/quality-academy/forgotten-lessons.h... Ford had transmissions produced in both the US and Japan, yet the Japanese made transmissions had 1/4 the repair frequency. Their engineers disassembled them to discover why. It turned out that they were both within spec, but the Japanese transmissions had been manufactured to tighter tolerances and had targeted rang…

Disappointed the story didn't end with the revelation that the good transmissions were all hand made by monks.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#140

Post by dredmorbius »

8bitbeep wrote: post #52
namuol wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this analogy resonates particularly well with the drug manufacturing process. I would think in general the bulk of the expense of a drug comes from its R&D, not manufacture. The cost of manufacture probably varies wildly (with the most expensive being bespoke treatments), but as the talk shows, there have been many examples where a (relatively) simple-to-manufacture drug is kept from those who need it d…

True, it’s just that the original quote is hard swallow. Try melting sand and polishing your own lenses and compare that to a US$ 5 glass.

Or ... a US$1,000 pair of Luxottica spectacles.
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