How China turns members of its diaspora into spies • Hacker News Board

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#171

Post by nindalf » Sun, Dec 29, 2024, 7:01 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #122

thinkingemote wrote: post #79

In the UK Chinese funded international masters/phd students have to send back to China reports about their fellow students as a condition of their funding. There's no mandatory spying expected if the position is funded privately or by the host institution. I expect that the spying is just limited to their fellow state funded students although I have heard of significant tension between mainland and Hong Kong students…

I'm shocked this is a thread on HN. Until recently these threads were flagged and removed from HN, and participants to conversations stating these things were warned of possible future bans. It looks like the conversation has changed quite dramatically. The geopolitical tone has trickled down to tech and VC. Firms like a16z are going all in on "American dynamism", which is basically about competition with China. It's…

dang would have to weigh in but it might be accepted because it’s not that far fetched? Look at all the other allegations in the economist article we’re discussing - in the context of all that flagrant conduct asking state funded students to rat on others is relatively tame.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#172

Post by alephnerd » Sun, Dec 29, 2024, 7:02 PM UTC

tokioyoyo wrote: post #164

alecco wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this downvoted? The comment sounds plausible. The Chinese mob (wink wink) has the biggest money laundering operation in the world. They have brokers who pick up (source) and deliver (destination) the cash. They do all the currency conversion. And then have an internal market to auction the conversions. All over Chinese government controlled networks like WeChat. Very clever. The Triads have been doing this kin…

You're right, but also lumping every rich Chinese into a "part of a mob" is kinda funny. We talk about how we've outsources a buttloads of manufacturing to China, how they're making a killing out of their industrial policies and etc. Obviously there will be millions of people in China who are rich through their businesses. Just like in the states. Dirty money will always exist, and currently exists in every single co…

It's a side effect of the currency controls Xi put in place in 2017-18.

Around that time, the Xi admin began limiting the amount of currency outflow from a single household to around $50-100k a year. That isn't enough for international tuition in most cases in the US, or moving abroad.

As such, anyone who wanted to move or pay tuition in the US began leveraging shadow banks.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#173

Post by alephnerd » Sun, Dec 29, 2024, 7:03 PM UTC

popcalc wrote: post #167

tokioyoyo wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, but also lumping every rich Chinese into a "part of a mob" is kinda funny. We talk about how we've outsources a buttloads of manufacturing to China, how they're making a killing out of their industrial policies and etc. Obviously there will be millions of people in China who are rich through their businesses. Just like in the states. Dirty money will always exist, and currently exists in every single co…

You cannot as a private person legally move more than about 100K USD out of mainland CN per year. You have to resort to criminal elements. Only they have the network. It's one of those things everyone does but lives in fear of being used against them by an enemy down the line.

The currency controls only began being enforced by Xi's admin in 2017-18, and it's just another tool of his to further entrench control.

Ironic given that his daughter attended Harvard, which is very pricy on a 2000s-era party salary.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#174

Post by DarkNova6 » Sun, Dec 29, 2024, 7:04 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #122

thinkingemote wrote: post #79

In the UK Chinese funded international masters/phd students have to send back to China reports about their fellow students as a condition of their funding. There's no mandatory spying expected if the position is funded privately or by the host institution. I expect that the spying is just limited to their fellow state funded students although I have heard of significant tension between mainland and Hong Kong students…

I'm shocked this is a thread on HN. Until recently these threads were flagged and removed from HN, and participants to conversations stating these things were warned of possible future bans. It looks like the conversation has changed quite dramatically. The geopolitical tone has trickled down to tech and VC. Firms like a16z are going all in on "American dynamism", which is basically about competition with China. It's…

I know some chinese people very well and even they have been warning about spies on campus for years.

I don’t buy the xenophobia argument.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#175

Post by IncreasePosts » Sun, Dec 29, 2024, 7:11 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #122

thinkingemote wrote: post #79

In the UK Chinese funded international masters/phd students have to send back to China reports about their fellow students as a condition of their funding. There's no mandatory spying expected if the position is funded privately or by the host institution. I expect that the spying is just limited to their fellow state funded students although I have heard of significant tension between mainland and Hong Kong students…

I'm shocked this is a thread on HN. Until recently these threads were flagged and removed from HN, and participants to conversations stating these things were warned of possible future bans. It looks like the conversation has changed quite dramatically. The geopolitical tone has trickled down to tech and VC. Firms like a16z are going all in on "American dynamism", which is basically about competition with China. It's…

It seems like it would play right into spies hand, if you convince people "don't even think this is a possibility!"

This reminds me of the paradox of tolerance. You know there would be no hand wringing in china about whether they could even discuss the possibility that some Americans in china could be spies.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#176

Post by casenmgreen » Sun, Dec 29, 2024, 7:21 PM UTC

webdoodle wrote: post #159

graemep wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot wrong with the US, and I (not American BTW) will criticise it quite freely and frequently BUT comparing the US to China is just ridiculous. What the US does can be criticised by its citizens, and protested. People can be punished. Wrongdoing can be exposed. Plenty of people in the US criticise the invasion of Iraq. I doubt many Chinese will find it safe to criticise the occupation of Tibet. Democracies…

> What the US does can be criticised by its citizens, and protested. People can be punished. Wrongdoing can be exposed. Plenty of people in the US criticise the invasion of Iraq. You won't be protesting in the U.S. without significant risks to your economic and social status. BTW - The Iraq war was several wars ago, and most of the people chatting here weren't even born for the first Iraq war. 2017 became the year th…

> If you care to test your theory, that you can criticise who you like in the U.S., I suggest you protest Israel, loudly and often.

People do, and are.

Go to China and protest about Tiananmen Square. You'll be picked up, and put away in minutes, no due process, no independent court, nothing. Who knows what happens to you, or when you get out.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#177

Post by whatever1 » Sun, Dec 29, 2024, 7:23 PM UTC

mardifoufs wrote: post #153

whatever1 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

whom did america genocide last year?

Unequivocally supporting and providing complete material support for a country that has been accused (or investigated for) of genocide by credible sources (MSF, ICJ) comes pretty close. Especially when most of the bombs used for said genocide were provided willingly by the US, knowing that it will be used to level a city to the ground.

Ok that is a different thing, America tolerated this situation. So did the rest of the planet, including all of the Arab states.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#178

Post by wat10000 » Sun, Dec 29, 2024, 7:25 PM UTC

jen20 wrote: post #100

sudosysgen wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed there is such a thing, it's the I-9 document check and is required for all new employees. The problem is that identity theft is so ridiculously easily in the US that it's trivial for bad actors to just steal someone's identity. The solution is to fix identity theft.

This starts with the framing. One does not have their identity stolen. The counterparty is instead defrauded into believing something that is not true - and the problem must be made entirely theirs.

It’s mad. Criminal A defrauds company B by pretending to be some rando C. And somehow this ends up being C’s problem, and we just accept this as normal.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#179

Post by dang » Sun, Dec 29, 2024, 7:27 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #122

thinkingemote wrote: post #79

In the UK Chinese funded international masters/phd students have to send back to China reports about their fellow students as a condition of their funding. There's no mandatory spying expected if the position is funded privately or by the host institution. I expect that the spying is just limited to their fellow state funded students although I have heard of significant tension between mainland and Hong Kong students…

I'm shocked this is a thread on HN. Until recently these threads were flagged and removed from HN, and participants to conversations stating these things were warned of possible future bans. It looks like the conversation has changed quite dramatically. The geopolitical tone has trickled down to tech and VC. Firms like a16z are going all in on "American dynamism", which is basically about competition with China. It's…

Nothing has changed in terms of HN moderation. You shouldn't conclude anything from one data point (or a handful of them) - there's far too much randomness.

Re: How China turns members of its diaspora into spies

#180

Post by qwezxcrty » Sun, Dec 29, 2024, 7:28 PM UTC

DarkNova6 wrote: post #174

echelon wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm shocked this is a thread on HN. Until recently these threads were flagged and removed from HN, and participants to conversations stating these things were warned of possible future bans. It looks like the conversation has changed quite dramatically. The geopolitical tone has trickled down to tech and VC. Firms like a16z are going all in on "American dynamism", which is basically about competition with China. It's…

I know some chinese people very well and even they have been warning about spies on campus for years. I don’t buy the xenophobia argument.

As an Chinese expat, I have indeed heard rumors about undercovers from Chinese three letters agencies in events organized by dissentients (like falungong) and I would try my best to avoid being involved.

However I hope the collateral damage to the innocent Chinese expats can be minimized. The reason of many of those to stay outside of China are concerns about the the ruling party and the desire to keep a distance from it. (Admittly also a higher quality of life, but no longer true in many cases.)