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BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

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Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#41

Post by mistermann »

timon999 wrote: post #34
portaouflop wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure if you apply enough mental gymnastics you can invalidate any claim. Good faith reading of his argument would be that a custom, artisan crafted hammer is better than a factory made one. I can’t say if that is true or not but using chips as an example- probably the most complex man made thing- is bad faith argumentation

If someone claims that X is "always"(!) the case, then giving just one example where X is not the case counts as a refutation. The statement that the GP quoted is just obviously false and there is nothing "bad faith" about pointing that out.

One some topics this is realized and praised on HN.

On other topics, the cognition flips.

This is the nature of evolved, culturally conditioned consciousness (one of the things most HN'ers like talking about from an abstract perspective, but really don't like talking about at the object level during discussions of certain controversial ideas, when heuristics have taken control of the mind).

For fun: observe the nature of comments in this thread from a meta perspective of a curious alien observer.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#42

Post by gcr »

This could get super interesting with my country’s political situation. I could see two particular groups getting into med production:

- Pregnant women who need abortion medication

- Trans people who need hormones

With finasteride and puberty blockers/HRT being criminalized, a lot of people in the above categories are turning to black market / DIY solutions.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#43

Post by georgeburdell »

Hasu wrote: post #16
georgeburdell wrote: post #7

I’m put off by their website. It seems too well crafted for their main focus to be on their stated goal of giving individuals the tools to treat themselves. The actual aim seems closer to marketing or perhaps influencing public discourse on the subject https://fourthievesvinegar.org/

> It seems too well crafted for their main focus to be on their stated goal of giving individuals the tools to treat themselves. Is this how you think about everything? Do you go to a restaurant with nice chairs and think, "The food here must suck, they spend too much money on the furniture"?

When it’s a small operation, yes I get suspicious that they’re not focusing on their stated mission with their limited resources. Also, ambience is part of the sensory pleasure of a restaurant.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#44

Post by gcr »

georgeburdell wrote: post #7

I’m put off by their website. It seems too well crafted for their main focus to be on their stated goal of giving individuals the tools to treat themselves. The actual aim seems closer to marketing or perhaps influencing public discourse on the subject https://fourthievesvinegar.org/

I’d argue that the political message is indivisible from the information-giving message in this case. Most of the groups doing this are in the business because they have a distrust for authority, desire to help community, etc. Shouldn’t we expect their messaging to be a little on the anarchist or libertarian side?

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#45

Post by wlesieutre »

timon999 wrote: post #34
portaouflop wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure if you apply enough mental gymnastics you can invalidate any claim. Good faith reading of his argument would be that a custom, artisan crafted hammer is better than a factory made one. I can’t say if that is true or not but using chips as an example- probably the most complex man made thing- is bad faith argumentation

If someone claims that X is "always"(!) the case, then giving just one example where X is not the case counts as a refutation. The statement that the GP quoted is just obviously false and there is nothing "bad faith" about pointing that out.

There’s not even much argument for it being true in most cases.

Artisan made tools compared to high end tools from a factory are more like a mechanical watch compared to an electronic one. It might be a cool mechanism and a more unique statement piece than an Apple Watch, but it sure won’t keep better time.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#46

Post by cjbgkagh »

I’ve procured substantial quantities of gray market (not illegal yet) medication ‘for research purposes’ and can probably safely say that it has indeed saved my life. While the medication was purchased the protocol was of my own design. Like many people with chronic conditions (LongCovid/Chronic Fatigue) I’ve long given up on doctors and only use them when I have to get a prescription. A lot of what I used are the human encoded bio regulator peptides mainly studied by Prof Khavinson and largely ignored in the West. Bacteriophages are another interesting medical technique ignored by the west. These days I think GLP-1A (ozempic) etc also help with auto-immune conditions so I’m confident there will be a lot of off label use at lower doses and I’m sure there already is. I haven’t had time to watch the video yet but Low Dose Naltrexone is a perfect case study of an effective medication dying due to lack of funding and being revived by patient groups. Naltrexone is a generic so there is no money in making it a treatment.

For a few years there was a shortage of modafinil so I looked into making it myself. It’s not too hard, totally doable. As technology improves it’ll get even easier. Especially going from a low yield batch chemistry to a higher yield lab on a chip continuous chemistry. For more complex stuff there are micro-bioreactors to use recombinant DNA. It’s pretty cost effective to send off samples for analysis. I’m not confident enough to use any of my own synthesized meds, at this stage it’s just a hobby.

Procuring a custom batch of meds from Asia can be as cheep as $10K so patient groups sometimes organize group buys. Because the turnaround is so quick and there are plenty of volunteers the patient groups can get results much faster than the medical researchers.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#47

Post by NeutralCrane »

While a noble cause, this seems like a prime example of “techies convince themselves they are smarter than everyone and they can solve every single problem with JavaScript”. Which is why, when you actually look at the project, it’s a website, instructions for a 3D printed version of the chemistry kit I bought my kid for Christmas for $40, several software suites all listed as “pre-alpha” (read: not working), and instructions for turning their logo into merch like stickers. This comes off more like an art project at best, or a garage-band version of Theranos at worst.

I hate being cynical about something like this. I want there to be affordable health solutions for people. But this comes off so naive and self-aggrandizing that it makes me want to actually get out of tech and into a field where people are more grounded. Something with fewer religious fanatics, God complexes, and delusions of grandeur.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#48

Post by snakeyjake »

Aurornis wrote: post #30

A lot of people miss the fact that this is more art project than practical solution. It’s meant to make a statement, but they have cherry-picked some extremely simple drugs to synthesize to make their point. I have some online friends who met through a forum for their rare condition. The forum they’re in had a splinter group dedicated to getting companies in China to synthesize experimental drugs for them that they c…

>Projects like this convince people that all drugs are actually really easy to make, when in reality this project has carefully selected the most simple examples to make that misleading point.

For the last thirty or so years ccc has mainly been a place for people to lie or exaggerate on stage in order to promote their security consulting firm or other freelance project.

So this is to be expected.

If replication in psychology is a crisis, the replication of results from hacker conference talks is an extinction-level apocalypse.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#49

Post by abduhl »

germandiago wrote: post #35
Aurornis wrote: post #30

A lot of people miss the fact that this is more art project than practical solution. It’s meant to make a statement, but they have cherry-picked some extremely simple drugs to synthesize to make their point. I have some online friends who met through a forum for their rare condition. The forum they’re in had a splinter group dedicated to getting companies in China to synthesize experimental drugs for them that they c…

The story probably has two sides, as you mention. However, I think everyone should be in charge of their own decisions, including taking not approved drugs, without being considered criminals or similar, under their strict own responsibility.

This question is pedantic but I’ll ask it anyways: is it actually illegal to take an unapproved drug? Sale of, marketing for, distribution, etc. all might be (are?) illegal but is TAKING an unapproved drug illegal? I can’t believe it is, there’s an entire industry that peddles nootropics and supplements. My understanding has always been that if you can get it (however that is), you can take it without issue (although you obviously might have broken a possession law at some point).

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#50

Post by [deleted] »

gcr wrote: post #42

This could get super interesting with my country’s political situation. I could see two particular groups getting into med production: - Pregnant women who need abortion medication - Trans people who need hormones With finasteride and puberty blockers/HRT being criminalized, a lot of people in the above categories are turning to black market / DIY solutions.

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