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BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

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Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#31

Post by bdndndndbve »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #17

The whole show feels like the financial literacy courses that are being offered by credit card companies. The system is stacked against the individual, we need to keep the notion of "personal responsibility" alive. Do we want this future: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/26/world/americas/mexican-ca... I know people who cook their own medicine, but they are trained as chemists or microbiologists and have access to lab…

It takes a diversity of tactics to overcome an adversary as entrenched as the pharmaceutical industry. I don't believe in their wild "one day everyone will manufacture their own medication" BS, but it's valuable to keep this knowledge in the public consciousness. If for no other reason to remind us that Big Pharma is gouging patients for life-saving drugs that are cheap and simple to manufacture.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#33

Post by NeutralCrane »

portaouflop wrote: post #26
8bitbeep wrote: post #18

> We all know that custom, hand-made, artisan-crafted, boutique tools are always better than something factory made. Right. We all know the best chips in the world are made by local artisan silicon-etchers. None of that TSMC pasteurized crap. You simply can't beat a 1nm brush and a steady hand. We all know this industrial revolution thing was a mistake.

Sure if you apply enough mental gymnastics you can invalidate any claim. Good faith reading of his argument would be that a custom, artisan crafted hammer is better than a factory made one. I can’t say if that is true or not but using chips as an example- probably the most complex man made thing- is bad faith argumentation

Given that the application here is molecular chemistry aimed at targeting human biology, one of the few problems equally complex as computer chips, I would say their analogy is far more appropriate than a hammer.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#34

Post by timon999 »

portaouflop wrote: post #26
8bitbeep wrote: post #18

> We all know that custom, hand-made, artisan-crafted, boutique tools are always better than something factory made. Right. We all know the best chips in the world are made by local artisan silicon-etchers. None of that TSMC pasteurized crap. You simply can't beat a 1nm brush and a steady hand. We all know this industrial revolution thing was a mistake.

Sure if you apply enough mental gymnastics you can invalidate any claim. Good faith reading of his argument would be that a custom, artisan crafted hammer is better than a factory made one. I can’t say if that is true or not but using chips as an example- probably the most complex man made thing- is bad faith argumentation

If someone claims that X is "always"(!) the case, then giving just one example where X is not the case counts as a refutation. The statement that the GP quoted is just obviously false and there is nothing "bad faith" about pointing that out.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#35

Post by germandiago »

Aurornis wrote: post #30

A lot of people miss the fact that this is more art project than practical solution. It’s meant to make a statement, but they have cherry-picked some extremely simple drugs to synthesize to make their point. I have some online friends who met through a forum for their rare condition. The forum they’re in had a splinter group dedicated to getting companies in China to synthesize experimental drugs for them that they c…

The story probably has two sides, as you mention.

However, I think everyone should be in charge of their own decisions, including taking not approved drugs, without being considered criminals or similar, under their strict own responsibility.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#36

Post by mistermann »

Aurornis wrote: post #30

A lot of people miss the fact that this is more art project than practical solution. It’s meant to make a statement, but they have cherry-picked some extremely simple drugs to synthesize to make their point. I have some online friends who met through a forum for their rare condition. The forum they’re in had a splinter group dedicated to getting companies in China to synthesize experimental drugs for them that they c…

>when in reality this project has carefully selected the most simple examples to make that misleading point.

Can you quote that part?

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#37

Post by mistermann »

portaouflop wrote: post #26
8bitbeep wrote: post #18

> We all know that custom, hand-made, artisan-crafted, boutique tools are always better than something factory made. Right. We all know the best chips in the world are made by local artisan silicon-etchers. None of that TSMC pasteurized crap. You simply can't beat a 1nm brush and a steady hand. We all know this industrial revolution thing was a mistake.

Sure if you apply enough mental gymnastics you can invalidate any claim. Good faith reading of his argument would be that a custom, artisan crafted hammer is better than a factory made one. I can’t say if that is true or not but using chips as an example- probably the most complex man made thing- is bad faith argumentation

Live by the sword die by the sword.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#38

Post by HarryHirsch »

bdndndndbve wrote: post #31
HarryHirsch wrote: post #17

The whole show feels like the financial literacy courses that are being offered by credit card companies. The system is stacked against the individual, we need to keep the notion of "personal responsibility" alive. Do we want this future: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/26/world/americas/mexican-ca... I know people who cook their own medicine, but they are trained as chemists or microbiologists and have access to lab…

It takes a diversity of tactics to overcome an adversary as entrenched as the pharmaceutical industry. I don't believe in their wild "one day everyone will manufacture their own medication" BS, but it's valuable to keep this knowledge in the public consciousness. If for no other reason to remind us that Big Pharma is gouging patients for life-saving drugs that are cheap and simple to manufacture.

With certain niche medications like trientine it used to be a small manufacturer, the scale of a man with a garage, who had the FDA registration and sold the stuff for a price that allowed him to make a living. That worked fine, until investment banking got there, and raised the price to whatever the market would bear.

Those days are gone, like the old web. Not sure, if the DIY movement can put enough pressure on the drug cartel to drop prices. Then again, university librarians had been complaining about Elsevier since the 1990's, but nothing got done until Sci-Hub appeared. That's the hammer argument against Crito.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#39

Post by namuol »

8bitbeep wrote: post #18

> We all know that custom, hand-made, artisan-crafted, boutique tools are always better than something factory made. Right. We all know the best chips in the world are made by local artisan silicon-etchers. None of that TSMC pasteurized crap. You simply can't beat a 1nm brush and a steady hand. We all know this industrial revolution thing was a mistake.

I don't think this analogy resonates particularly well with the drug manufacturing process.

I would think in general the bulk of the expense of a drug comes from its R&D, not manufacture. The cost of manufacture probably varies wildly (with the most expensive being bespoke treatments), but as the talk shows, there have been many examples where a (relatively) simple-to-manufacture drug is kept from those who need it due to prices that do not reflect the cost of manufacture.

Will most drugs be easy to make at home? Probably not, but enough probably can be that I wouldn't dismiss the idea because of some rhetorical overreach.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#40

Post by daveguy »

I guess they're not so concerned with the "oops, poison" aspect of manufacturing drugs. Or ethics driven testing of drugs for safety and efficacy. Seems like a great way to fk up and kill people. Also, they say compounding pharmacies are illegal, but they're not. Not in the US or Germany. There's one down the street from me and my neighbor was a compounding pharmacist.
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