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Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

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Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#271
post #11

"I don't understand most of the technical details of Apple's blog post" I do: - Client side vectorization: the photo is processed locally, preparing a non-reversible vector representation before sending (think semantic hash). - Differential privacy: a decent amount of noise is added the the vector before sending it. Enough to make it impossible to reverse lookup the vector. The noise level here is ε = 0.8, which is q…

I appreciate the explanation. However, I think you do not address the main problem, which is that my data is being sent off my device by default and without any (reasonable) notice. Many users may agree to such a feature (as you say, it may be very secure), but to assume that everyone ought to be opted in by default is the issue.

I’m a cryptographer and I just learned about this feature today while I’m on a holiday vacation with my family. I would have loved the chance to read about the architecture, think hard about how much leakage there is in this scheme, but I only learned about it in time to see that it had already been activated on my device. Coincidentally on a vacation where I’ve just taken about 400 photos of recognizable locations.

This is not how you launch a privacy-preserving product if your intentions are good, this is how you slip something under the radar while everyone is distracted.

Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#272
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had better build your own silicon chips and phone hardware as well in that case.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

That's what rallying against Apple in the name of privacy is already...

Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#273
post #11

"I don't understand most of the technical details of Apple's blog post" I do: - Client side vectorization: the photo is processed locally, preparing a non-reversible vector representation before sending (think semantic hash). - Differential privacy: a decent amount of noise is added the the vector before sending it. Enough to make it impossible to reverse lookup the vector. The noise level here is ε = 0.8, which is q…

> This is what a good privacy story looks like. I have an idea: send an encrypted, relayed, non-reversible, noised vector representation of your daily phone habits and interactions. That way you can be bucketed, completely anonymously of course, with other user cohorts for tracking, advertising, and other yet-to-be discovered purposes. It's a great privacy story! Why would you have a problem with that?

They don't "have your data," even at an aggregated and noised level, due to the homomorphic encryption part.

Restating the layers above, in reverse:

- They don't see either your data or the results of the query (it's fully encrypted even from them where they compute the query -- this is what homomorphic encryption means)

- Even if they broke the encryption and had your query data / the query result, they don't know who "you" are (the relay part)

- Even if they had your query hash and your identity, they couldn't reverse the hash to identify which specific photos you have in your library (the client-side vectorization + differential privacy part), though by the this point they could know what records in the places database were hits. So they could know that you took a photo of a landmark, but only if the encryption and relay were both broken.

Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#275

To me it seems like a reasonable feature that was, for the most part, implemented with great consideration for user privacy, though maybe I’m too trusting of the description. I mostly think this article is rage-bait and one should be wary of ‘falling for it’ when it shows up on hacker news in much the same way that one should be wary when rage-bait articles show up in tabloids or on Facebook. It seems likely to me th…

Literally all Apple needed to do was not have it enabled by default. Sending stuff over the network without asking is why trust in Apple is reduced further and further.

[flagged]

Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#276
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to evaluate the privacy of these technologies. Someone reply with a link to the source code so I can see exactly what it is doing, without having to take an internet rando's word for it. Better yet, let me compile it myself.

If you have the capability to actually skillfully analyze this type of crypto, disassembling the binaries from your device (or at the very least, an ipsw for your device) should be trivial. After all, you wouldn’t actually be trusting the source code given to you to match what’s running on your device, would you?

Reverse engineering is a separate skillet on its own, on top of the other ones you need to read the source code and good developers aren't necessarily good at that.

> After all, you wouldn’t actually be trusting the source code given to you to match what’s running on your device, would you?

That's why the best practice in the industry follows reproducible builds.

Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#277
post #6

So it sends your photos to be indexed on Apple servers. Turned on by default. This is probably done to compete with Google Photos which has a great photo search by word feature. With that said, Apple can use whatever privacy measures to protect user data. But at the end of the day, a subpoena can easily force them to hand over data. The best privacy measure is to just not have the data. I guess indexing photos offlin…

> I guess indexing photos offline in phone is not very feasible yet.

There has been a form of on device indexing since at least iOS 12. My understanding is it performs a basic indexing typically overnight when the phone is charging and allows one to perform searches like "dog" or "car" and pull up matching images.

https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/search-in-photos-iph3...

Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, your photos aren't sent, also not 'pieces' of it. They are creating vector data which can be used to create searchable vectors which in turn can be used on-device to find visual matches for your search queries (which are local). You can imagine it as hashes (created locally), some characters of that hash from some random positions being used to find out if those can be turned into a query (which is compute intens…

My understanding as the blog laid it out was that the cloud service is doing the vector similarity search against a finite database of landmark feature vectors, but they are performing that mathematical function under homomorphic encryption such that the result of the vector comparison can only be read with a key that never left your device, so it's just adding a tag "Eiffel tower" that only you see, but the feature…

Yep. It's essentially an implementation of remote attestation "the other way around". Normally the edge device is untrusted and needs to attest a variety of things before compute is done and the result is accepted, but PCC is the other way where the edge device holds the keys (technically octagon works that out, but it's backed by the on-device SEP).

So it does it multiple ways:

- Finite sets and added noise, doesn't hurt performance too much but does make it nearly impossible to ID/locate a photo

- Encryption at rest and in transit

- Transit over hops they don't own

- Homomorphic Encryption during remote compute

The data it finds was available in two ways: the "result" and the vector embedding. Not sure which one you end up consuming since it also has to work on older models that might not be able to load the embeddings and perform adequately, but it doesn't matter since the data itself will be unique so you can't do parallel reconstruction, but it is also uniquely meaningless to anyone without a key. They are essentially computing on needles that aren't in a haystack, but in a needle stack.

The primitives all this is built on have been around for quite a while, including their HBONE implementation, the cryptographically hidden data distribution and the SEP. So far, it has been the only one of its kind outside of disjointed options like buying and operating your own HSM, a large TOR network and a yet to-be-invented self-hosted PCC solution (AMD was supposed to release something but they failed at that, just not as bad as Intel messed up with SGX).

Technically, even with everything else removed, just some good TLS 1.2+ and homomorphic encryption would have been more than any other mass market manufacturer has ever done in an effective way. But by adding the additional factors such as degrees of separation so they couldn't get in themselves (without breaking it for everyone in the process) is what makes this so much more robust.

Re: Apple Photos phones home on iOS 18 and macOS 15

#280
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it does address the main problem. What he is saying is that multiple layers of security is used to ensure (mathematically and theoretically proved) that there is no risk in sending the data, because it is encrypted and sent is such a way that apple or any third party will never be able to read/access it (again, based on theoretically provable math) . If there is no risk there is no harm, and then there is a d…

Hypothetical scenario: Theo de Raadt and Bruce Schneier are hired to bring Apple products up to their security standards. They are given a public blog, and they are not required to sign an NDA. They fix every last vulnerability in the architecture. Vladimir Putin can buy MacBooks for himself and his generals in Moscow, enable Advanced Data Protection, and collaborate on war plans in total confidence. Where are the bo…

Theo de Raadt is less competent than Apple's security team (and its external researchers). The main thing OpenBSD is known for among security people is adding random mitigations that don't do anything because they thought them up without talking to anyone in the industry.
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