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Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

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Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#51

Less of us should be discounting the value of investing in new, long-term friendships, in the second or third place we live, and stop discounting the impact of arbitrarily moving away for cheaper or more isolated pastures just because we work remotely. There's a threshold past which it's worth considering how much is worth it to remain, but for many it seems like a no-brainer financial consideration, and they don't r…

Yes but investing in new, long-term friendships is a bit of an oxymoron. In order to do that, you have to pick one set of friends and then stick with them (cuz opportunity cost — the day is only so long). And once you've done so, you then have to stop investing in new friends and stick with those old ones.

Cities aren't very conducive to this in part because... people in cities tend to be more transient and their relationships more transactional. You have so much more choice, and the people you know have more choice, and people come and go.

In order to invest in long-term friendships, you need to be in a location where both you and the people you're making friends with are actually going to stay, and where both sides of the relationship are invested in the long-term nature of it.

This is much more likely to happen in a rural area than a city. I'd wager that constraining choice creates intimacy far moreso than alignment of interests. It's not about how much you like each other — it's about high-enough switching costs to hanging out with someone else that keep you together over a very long period of time.

In a city, even if you find the most compatible friend ever... there's also going to be 50 people almost as compatible (and vice versa for the people you're hanging out with).

In a rural area, you might not find someone you're perfectly compatible with... but they're far more likely to be the only person in the area with interests that are that aligned... and that creates intimacy... which will only make you more like them and them more like you.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#52

rich people problems

More like I need to be rich to move to where my friends are - I went to college in the Bay Area and I can’t afford to live there. But honestly it’s not hard to keep in touch these days if you want to so I’m not the least bit bothered. As a renter, I’m constantly on the move because I can’t afford homeownership - the price to rent ratio is firmly between 19 and 20 at the moment, and that’s after moving from the Bay Ar…

why does renting force you to move? how does owning a home allow you to stay if other considerations may force you to sell the house and buy another one?

my mother lives in a rental apartment that my family has been in since 150 years ago.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s likely folly to think that the big city is only place where intellectual pursuit and learning can happen. I often tell people that living in a rural area is much like living in the city, but living next to the city is like neither.

It's a simple matter of density. It's not about intellect or intellectual pursuit at large, rural people are plenty smart. It's that intellectual pursuits can be very niche, and you're more likely to find someone that shares that very specific intellectual pursuit the more people there are, in close proximity. If you're located somewhere rural, your closest neighbors maybe 30 mins away, and friends often further. Tha…

This is it. It’s proximity.

Let’s say you’re interested in transformers. In a big city, you could go to a meetup, talk to different people working on this stuff at a production level (maybe there’s even some guy who works on it at Google), talk about tips or pitfalls that no one ever publishes and potentially have the conversation veer off to DuckDB or some obscure topic. When you have a gathering of like minds, the conversation can go in unpredictable directions and you can potentially land in very interesting places.

In a less urban area, this is far less likely to happen because there are just fewer people with the same interests (unless you’re lucky). I grew up with friends who were absolutely brilliant (high fluid intelligence) who come from farming families. But they just weren’t interested in what I was interested in. The core of intellectual pursuit isn’t just smart people, but the confluence of people who have the same interests and who are also well positioned.

You might ask, can’t you just learn this stuff online and talk to people on Reddit? But the reality is that positive effects of randomness require real life undirected interactions with the right people.

(This is for instance why people are willing to relocate to a cold city like Montreal (-30°C/-22°F in the winter) to work in Bengio’s lab for a couple of years, just so they can overhear lunchtime conversations about how to train certain models. A lot of this knowledge is caught and not taught.)

I’ve gotten so many ideas from just random conversations with well positioned people who happened to be doing something important and interesting. It’s not just about being smart.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#54
post #6

I would love to, but I come from a place where intellectual pursuits are not valued, so I would lose out on that front if I moved back. I’m the type who needs to always be learning. So I would always need to be in a big city. Alain Bertaud, the urbanist, recently said, “the big contribution of cities is randomness.” And he continues: “You don't know what to expect. You don't know who you will meet. And, it's precisel…

I don’t think suburbs are the cause of isolation. I’m on the tail end of a trip to Argentina and I can tell you that in general, people in the suburbs here are out and about, chatting with the neighbors, and getting together with family/friends in their backyards all the time.

i read the parent comment as the desire for isolation being the cause of suburbs,

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#55
post #6

I would love to, but I come from a place where intellectual pursuits are not valued, so I would lose out on that front if I moved back. I’m the type who needs to always be learning. So I would always need to be in a big city. Alain Bertaud, the urbanist, recently said, “the big contribution of cities is randomness.” And he continues: “You don't know what to expect. You don't know who you will meet. And, it's precisel…

> In North America, there is a very strong cultural preference to isolate oneself There's also a "very strong cultural preference" to be "obnoxious," as you put it. Hence a strong preference to isolate oneself. I'd be fine living and raising a family in a high-rise downtown in a country where people behave themselves. Not here in the US. The comparison isn't apples-to-apples.

High density living in a downtown area is inversely correlated with having a family across a wide selection of different countries though. The highest density countries like Korea and Japan have some of the lowest fertility rates.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34914431/

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#56
post #46

I go back and forth on this. I still keep in touch with a bunch of high school and college friends. For better or worse those guys know "the real me" and the history and relationships are impossible to replace. They all still live close together but I live far away - I only see them once or twice a year, if that (less right now because we're all in the "very young kids" stage). I miss them. On the other hand, when I…

> What's to be done?

Our society would need to re-think its norms around moving away in order to move upward, which runs into some pretty big philosophical ideas around geography, culture, and values. For technologists, this cultural movement is still in a bit of a philosophical stage, but it's starting to make its way into some early experiments. https://www.plurality.net/ is probably the best written work on it so far.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#57
post #46

I go back and forth on this. I still keep in touch with a bunch of high school and college friends. For better or worse those guys know "the real me" and the history and relationships are impossible to replace. They all still live close together but I live far away - I only see them once or twice a year, if that (less right now because we're all in the "very young kids" stage). I miss them. On the other hand, when I…

Nothing. Stay with your wife’s social circle, stay in touch with your old friends, and build community where you are with your family. Children are a fantastic icebreaker and way to meet people.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#58
post #46

I go back and forth on this. I still keep in touch with a bunch of high school and college friends. For better or worse those guys know "the real me" and the history and relationships are impossible to replace. They all still live close together but I live far away - I only see them once or twice a year, if that (less right now because we're all in the "very young kids" stage). I miss them. On the other hand, when I…

> I only see them once or twice a year, if that (less right now because we're all in the "very young kids" stage). I miss them.

How often do you think you would see them if you lived in the same city?

If you see them twice a year, for a few days straight, I think you are doing really well and I am sure they appreciate the effort you make.

Can you cut the difference and go camping once a year or every second year for a week or two as a family? So their kids and your kids get to know each other, and maybe your wife and theirs too.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#59
There is a movement called Cohousing that I don’t think gets enough attention.

I prefer to call it Tiny Neighborhoods, which is basically what the article describes.

If interested, I did a 3,000 word deep dive into the specifics of how tiny neighborhoods have worked over the past 50 years…

https://iambateman.com/tiny

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#60
post #46

I go back and forth on this. I still keep in touch with a bunch of high school and college friends. For better or worse those guys know "the real me" and the history and relationships are impossible to replace. They all still live close together but I live far away - I only see them once or twice a year, if that (less right now because we're all in the "very young kids" stage). I miss them. On the other hand, when I…

I don’t know if it’ll help any, but I maintain a solid handful of group chats with friends of mine from years long past.

I don’t have a social media pretense at all, and the “intimate” nature of a “raw” group chat has helped me, personally, keep in touch with people I otherwise wouldn’t have.

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