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Merry Christmas Everyone

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Re: Merry Christmas Everyone

#361

Post by lolinder »

satvikpendem wrote: post #358
lolinder wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't. But we also don't know that they were, and we don't have enough quality evidence in favor of that hypothesis to justify the confidence with which it is asserted. In the absence of evidence about the timing being affected by other festivals and in the presence of much evidence that all the actual traditions are far more recent than pagan, I don't believe it's fair to claim Christmas has pagan origins. The ab…

I agree but I also would be interested to see any proof for the claims you're talking about with regards to Christmas not having any pagan roots, where are you finding this information or rather, where can I read more?

I linked one example—a video on Christmas trees from a religious studies scholar. They have similar content on the date of Christmas, and there are plenty of sources on each other tradition.

Here's another one on Saturnalia from the same scholar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lsctaPJSvo

Re: Merry Christmas Everyone

#362

Post by satvikpendem »

lolinder wrote: post #361
satvikpendem wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree but I also would be interested to see any proof for the claims you're talking about with regards to Christmas not having any pagan roots, where are you finding this information or rather, where can I read more?

I linked one example—a video on Christmas trees from a religious studies scholar. They have similar content on the date of Christmas, and there are plenty of sources on each other tradition. Here's another one on Saturnalia from the same scholar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lsctaPJSvo

Great, appreciate it. Merry Christmas!

Re: Merry Christmas Everyone

#363

Post by lolinder »

satvikpendem wrote: post #362
lolinder wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I linked one example—a video on Christmas trees from a religious studies scholar. They have similar content on the date of Christmas, and there are plenty of sources on each other tradition. Here's another one on Saturnalia from the same scholar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lsctaPJSvo

Great, appreciate it. Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas!

Re: Merry Christmas Everyone

#364

Post by singleshot_ »

EchoReflection wrote: post #353
lolinder wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pagan origins thing is a myth, btw—all the various bits which people point to as evidence still date back to a Christian-era Europe and cannot be traced back further. Christianity has been around for a very very long time and has had a lot of time to evolve its own traditions. :) For example, Christmas trees date back no later than the middle ages: https://youtube.com/watch?v=m41KXS-LWsY

ChatGPT and Grok say Christmas either does or might have pagan origins, but not that it definitely does not have pagan origins (yes, I know "proving negatives"is very difficult†). ChatGPT: https://chatgpt.com/share/676c8fd1-b6e0-8005-a86f-d43ac17634... Grok: https://x.com/i/grok/share/8fQKIFO1WGl3nDVZ6uFaJmPTW †Grok on proving negatives: https://x.com/i/grok/share/kcHkjqzJ5lx5kMyl4GL0nMuw3

Ok, but what about asking someone who knows (anything)?

Re: Merry Christmas Everyone

#365

Post by abustamam »

Aloha wrote: post #323
abustamam wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Muslim too and I always find it interesting to see how various non-Christian theists observe Christmas. Obviously we don't "celebrate" but I personally don't see anything wrong with partaking in the secular parts of Christmas (and let's be real, in the west, it's pretty much all secular). My parents felt otherwise when I was growing up, so my siblings and I weren't allowed to do anything Christmas related, but no…

I will argue that in the US Christmas is in part a secular holiday - given its sorta pagan origins that makes total sense to me. It's a solstice feast basically.

I think Christmas is whatever one makes of it. Whether or not one believes it's a Christian holiday or Pagan holiday — celebrate/observe (or don't) how you like. My wife's family is Catholic and they believe it's a sacred holiday so they celebrate it religiously. Its origins aren't important to that effect. Many religious traditions can probably be traced to secular origins.

Personally for me, it's a good excuse to take time off work and hang out and feast with people who also have time off work. I personally think that (at least in the States) it's basically a Commercial Holiday, in that it just encourages over-consumption, consumerisation.

Re: Merry Christmas Everyone

#366

Post by abustamam »

sgt wrote: post #328
abustamam wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Muslim too and I always find it interesting to see how various non-Christian theists observe Christmas. Obviously we don't "celebrate" but I personally don't see anything wrong with partaking in the secular parts of Christmas (and let's be real, in the west, it's pretty much all secular). My parents felt otherwise when I was growing up, so my siblings and I weren't allowed to do anything Christmas related, but no…

I spoke to a muslim who basically just "gave in" and started doing Christmas at home because the kids wanted it. With the tree and Xmas presents etc even.

Yeah that's probably more common than you might expect. My mom is a teacher at an Islamic school and some of her 1st graders would often say stuff like "we have a Christmas tree at home but my mom told me not to tell anyone," which might give you an idea of how Muslims view Christmas.

It's not something I personally want to do for my family, but I don't think any less of families that do that.

Re: Merry Christmas Everyone

#368

Post by cperciva »

satvikpendem wrote: post #352
cperciva wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does, doesn't it? This might say something about English authors -- a lot of them went to Oxford or other places heavily inspired by Oxford.

Seems like that commenter's comments are all AI, albeit with an atypical prompt.

Huh, I wondered why it was flagged. Seems like a sensible comment regardless of the author, though.

Re: Merry Christmas Everyone

#369

Post by JumpCrisscross »

lolinder wrote: post #331
Aloha wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will argue that in the US Christmas is in part a secular holiday - given its sorta pagan origins that makes total sense to me. It's a solstice feast basically.

The pagan origins thing is a myth, btw—all the various bits which people point to as evidence still date back to a Christian-era Europe and cannot be traced back further. Christianity has been around for a very very long time and has had a lot of time to evolve its own traditions. :) For example, Christmas trees date back no later than the middle ages: https://youtube.com/watch?v=m41KXS-LWsY

> pagan origins thing is a myth, btw

Saturnalia? (I’m watching your video.)

Given how diversely Christmas is celebrated, it seems wild to conclude that it hasn’t been significantly affected by predecessor celebrations.

Re: Merry Christmas Everyone

#370

Post by tasty_freeze »

bradleyy wrote: post #259
tasty_freeze wrote: post #255

I grew up in a family with eight kids. Mom was stay at home and Dad did well, but with eight kids each individual kid received a few mostly modest presents. When I was in college and home for Thanksgiving, my folks invited everyone out to dinner. After ordering, my dad would often introduce a topic of discussion that we'd bat around until the food came. That year he said: if you didn't need to worry about money or su…

I also play electric bass, and love this story. The real question is: do you still have the Hondo?

No, the hondo is long gone. After college, when I had a job, I bought a much better bass. I don't have any recollection what I did with the hondo. It would have been the mid to late 80s, so there was no craigslist to sell it.

That hondo had action so high I needed to attach a parachute to each note I played.

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