Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but isn't this exactly what the FHIR standard is meant to address? Not only does it enable global inter-health communication using a standardized resource, but it's already adopted in several national health services, including (but not broadly), America. Is this not simply a reimplementation, but without the broad iterations of HL7?
Why are cancer guidelines stuck in PDFs?
41–50 of 163 posts
Re: Why are cancer guidelines stuck in PDFs?
#42Decision trees work for making decisions... But they don't work as well as other decisionmaking techniques... Random forests, linear models, neural nets, etc. are all decision making techniques at their core. And decision trees perform poorly for complex systems where lots of data exists - ie. human health. So why are we using a known-inferior technique simply because it's easier to write down in a PDF file, reason a…
> complex systems where lots of data exists Not a lot of high quality data exists for human health. Clinical guidelines for many diseases are built around surprisingly scant evidence many times. > even if they're so complex no human can understand them? That’ll be wonderful to explain in court when they figure out it was just data smuggling or whatever other bias.
Go to a clinical cancer conference and you will see the grim reality of 10,000s of people contributing to the knowledge discovery process with their cancer care. There is an inverse relationship between the number of people in a trial and the amount of risk that goes into that trial, but it is still a massive amount of data that needs to be codified into some sensible system, and it's hard enough for a person to do it.
> That’ll be wonderful to explain in court when they figure out it was just data smuggling or whatever other bias.
What do you mean by this? I'm not aware of any data smuggling that has ever happened in a clinical trial. The "bias" is that any research hypothesis comes from the fundamentally biased position of "I think the data is telling me this" but I've seen very little bias of truly bad hypotheses in cancer research like those that have dominated, say Alzheimer's research. Any research malfeasance should be prosecuted to the fullest, but I don't think cancer research has much of it. This was a huge scandal, but I don't think it pointed to much in the way of bad research in the end:
https://www.propublica.org/article/doctor-jose-baselga-cance...
Re: Why are cancer guidelines stuck in PDFs?
#43The fundamental idea here is that doctors find it difficult to ensure that their recommendations are actually up-to-date with the latest clinical research. Further, that by virtue of being at the centre of action in research, doctors in prestige medical centres have an advantage that could be available to all doctors. It's a pretty important point, sometimes referred to as the dissemination of knowledge problem. Curr…
> doctors find it difficult to ensure that their recommendations are actually up-to-date with the latest clinical research Doctors care about as much this as software engineers care about the latest computer science research. A few curious ones do. But the general attitude is they already did tough years of school so they don’t have to anymore.
Oncology has a rapidly changing treatment landscape and it’s common for oncologists to be discussing the latest paper that has come out.
If you’re an oncologist and not keeping up with the literature you’re going to be out of date in your decisions in about 6 months from graduation.
Re: Why are cancer guidelines stuck in PDFs?
#44PDFs are a universal, machine readable format.
I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate the practice of using PDFs as a system of record. They are intended to be a print format for ensuring consistent typesetting and formatting. For that, I have no quarrel. But so much of the world economy is based on taking text, docx (XML), spreadsheets, or even CSV files, rendering them out as PDFs, and then emailing them around or storing them in databases. They've gone from being simply a view layer to infecting the model layer.
PDFs are a step better than passing around screenshots of text as images - when they don't literally consist of a single image, that is. But even for reasonably-well-behaved, mostly-text PDFs, finding things like "headers" and "sections" in the average case is dependent on a huge pile of heuristics about spacing and font size conventions. None of that semantic structure exists, it's just individual characters with X-Y coordinates. (My favorite thing to do with people starting to work with PDFs is to tell them that the files don't usually contain any whitespace characters, and then watch the horror slowly dawn as they contemplate the implications.) (And yes, I know that PDF/A theoretically exists, but it's not reliably used, and certainly won't exist on any file produced more than a couple years ago.)
Now, with multi-modal LLMs and OCR reaching near-human levels, we can finally... attempt to infer structured data back out from them. So many megawatt-hours wasted in undoing what was just done. Structure to unstructure to structure again. Why, why, why.
As for universality... I mean, sure, they're better than some proprietary format that can only be decrypted or parsed by one old rickety piece of software that has to run in Win95 compatibility mode. But they're not better than JSON or XML if the source of truth is structured, and they're not better than Markdown or - again - XML if the source is mostly text. And there are always warts that aren't fully supported depending on your viewer.
Re: Why are cancer guidelines stuck in PDFs?
#45I’d rather have the pdf than a custom tool. Especially considering the tool will be unique to the practice or emr. And likely expensive to maintain. PDFs suck in many ways but are durable and portable. If I work with two oncologists, I use the same pdf. The author means well but his solution will likely be worse because only he will understand it. And there’s a million edge cases.
Community oncologists have limited technology resources as compared to a national cancer center. If we can make their lives easier, it can only be a good thing.
That said, I like published documents like PDFs - systems usually make it hard to conii ok are the June release from the September release.
Re: Why are cancer guidelines stuck in PDFs?
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
The cancer reporting protocols from the College of American Pathologists are available in structured format (1). No major laboratory information system vendor properly implements them, properly, and their implementation errors cause some not-insignificant problems with patient care (oncologists calling the lab asking for clarification, etc). This has pushed labs to make policies disallowing the use of those modules a…
> The medical information systems vendors are right up there with health insurance companies in terms of their investment in ensuring patient deaths. Ensuring. With an E. Can you expand on this?
Re: Why are cancer guidelines stuck in PDFs?
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hey author here! Appreciate the feedback! Agreed on importance of portability and durability. I'm not trying to build this out or sell it as a tool to providers. Just wanted to demo what you could do with structured guidelines. I don't think there's any reason this would have to be unique to a practice or emr. As sister comments mentioned, I think the ideal case here would be if the guideline institutions released th…
>Agreed on importance of portability and durability. I think "importance" is understating it, because permanent consistency is practically the only reason we all (still) use PDFs in quite literally every professional environment as a lowest common denominator industrial standard. PDFs will always render the same, whether on paper or a screen of any size connected to a computer of any configuration. PDFs will almost a…
Re: Why are cancer guidelines stuck in PDFs?
#48I’d rather have the pdf than a custom tool. Especially considering the tool will be unique to the practice or emr. And likely expensive to maintain. PDFs suck in many ways but are durable and portable. If I work with two oncologists, I use the same pdf. The author means well but his solution will likely be worse because only he will understand it. And there’s a million edge cases.
Exactly. The PDF's work . They won't break. You can see all the information with your own eyes. You can send them by e-mail. A wizard-type system hides most of the information from you, it might have bugs you aren't aware of, if you want to glance at an alternative path you can't, it's going to be locked into registered users, the system can go down. I think much more intelligent computer systems are the future in he…
I didn't see anything in the screenshots presented that wouldn't be doable in a single HTML file containing the data, styles and scripts?
This is a countercultural idea but it fits so many use cases; it's a tragedy we don't do this more often. The two options are either PDF or SaaS.