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More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

theguardian.com

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Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#461
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a point of wealth where someone can no longer afford to speak on these platforms, and that inevitably will prevent change, which tends to come from the people not well-served by the system as it is, i.e. poor people. "Change" in itself is not a virtue. What I think you want is good or beneficial change? That said, what evidence do you have that poor people specifically are catalysing positive change online? > This…

> "Change" in itself is not a virtue. What I think you want is good or beneficial change? That said, what evidence do you have that poor people specifically are catalysing positive change online? We would probably disagree on what change we think is beneficial, but in terms of catalyzing the changes I find appealing, I see plenty of it myself. I'm not sure how I could dig up a study on something like this, but I'm op…

Your reply is rather long so I'll only respond to 2 sections to avoid us speculating randomly without actually referring to data or running actual experiments.

To clarify:

> That's why I find the prospect of making posting expensive threatening to society's capacity for beneficial change.

I suggested making it cost something. "Expensive" is a relative term and for some reason you unjustifiably assumed that I'm proposing "expensive", however defined. Incentive design is about the marginal cost of using a resource, as you later observed when you suggested $5.

We often observe in real life (swimming pools, clubs, public toilets, hiking trails, camping grounds) that introducing a trivial marginal cost often deters bad actors and free-loaders[^0]. It's what's referred to in ideas such as "the tragedy of the commons".

> An approach that might help is something like this: Require companies to charge a very small set amount to make each individual post

Yes that's a marginal cost, which is what I suggested. So basically, we agree. The rest is implementation details that will depend on jurisdiction, companies, platforms and so forth.

> I don't think that adding a cost to the posts will end up paying for mental healthcare without careful regulation.

Without data or case studies to reference, I can't speculate about that and other things that are your opinions but thank you for thinking about the proposal and responding.

> Where are all the foundations helping provide moderator mental health treatment? This is a pretty widely reported issue; I'd expect to see wealthy benefactors trying to solve it, yet the problem remains unsolved.

I don't mean to sound rude but have you tried to solve the problem and start a foundation? Why is it some mysterious wealthy benefactor or other people who should solve it rather than you who cares about the problem? Why do you expect to see others and not yourself, solving it?

Raising funds from wealthy people for causes is much easier than people imagine.

---

[^0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-rider_problem

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worth noting that I trained formally in Buddhism under a teacher for a few years. I’m not unaware of all this And the Vedic version of suffering is all full of love for reality, not wanting to delete it by smashing a button

> Worth noting that I trained formally in Buddhism under a teacher for a few years. I’m not unaware of all this You trained personally for a few years and yet you make such sweeping statements/strokes that a neophyte is prompted to point out basic facts about this practice (apparently an adequate retelling since you don’t bother to correct me)? You might think this bolsters something (?) but I think the case is the o…

I don’t really know what you’re talking about, sorry. This is coming off as incoherent rambling to me

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#463
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, indeed, this is why we should not expect the process to stop. Nobody is rallying behind the rights of child abusers and those who traffic in child abuse material. Arguably, nor should they. The slippery slope argument only applies if the slope is slippery. This is analogous to the police's use of genealogy and DNA data to narrow searches for murderers, who they then collected evidence on by other means. There's…

> And, indeed, this is why we should not expect the process to stop. Nobody is rallying behind the rights of child abusers and those who traffic in child abuse material. Arguably, nor should they. I wouldn't be so sure. When Apple was going to introduce on-device scanning they actually proposed to do it in two places. • When you uploaded images to your iCloud account they proposed scanning them on your device first.…

If it's the EFF, I think they went out on a limb on this one that not a lot of American parents would agree with. "People have the right to communicate privately without backdoors or censorship, including when those people are minors" (emphasis mine) is a controversial position. Arguably, not having that level of privacy is the curtailment on children's rights.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Worth noting that I trained formally in Buddhism under a teacher for a few years. I’m not unaware of all this You trained personally for a few years and yet you make such sweeping statements/strokes that a neophyte is prompted to point out basic facts about this practice (apparently an adequate retelling since you don’t bother to correct me)? You might think this bolsters something (?) but I think the case is the o…

I don’t really know what you’re talking about, sorry. This is coming off as incoherent rambling to me

My comment was saying that this part was about ending suffering, not about wishing ill-will. I don’t understand what’s unclear.

> > Reality is actually bad, and it should be far more intuitive to folks. The fact that positive experience is felt "quickly" and negative experience is felt "slowly" was all the evidence I needed that I wouldn't just press the "instantly and painlessly and without warning destroy reality" (benevolent world-exploder) button, I'd smash it!

> This is coming off as incoherent rambling to me

You do like to gesture vaguely and tell me that "I don’t know what this is". Meanwhile I have pointed out at least one instance where you flat out just contradicted yourself on psychoanalysis. Or "incoherent rambling" (on psychoanalysis) if you will

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#465
post #95
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that we're particularly fragile, given the kind of physical trauma human beings can survive and recover from. It's that we have technologically engineered things that are destructive enough to get even past that threshold. Modern warfare in particular is insanely energetic in the most literal, physical way - when you measure the energy output of weapons in joules. Partly because we're just that good at makin…

Watch how a group of wild dogs kill their prey, then realise that for milenia human like apes were part of their diet. Even the modern battlefield is more humane than the African savannah.

> Even the modern battlefield is more humane than the African savannah.

On behalf of dead WWI soldiers I find this offensive.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t really know what you’re talking about, sorry. This is coming off as incoherent rambling to me

My comment was saying that this part was about ending suffering, not about wishing ill-will. I don’t understand what’s unclear. > > Reality is actually bad, and it should be far more intuitive to folks. The fact that positive experience is felt "quickly" and negative experience is felt "slowly" was all the evidence I needed that I wouldn't just press the "instantly and painlessly and without warning destroy reality"…

Er ok

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#467
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird take. The point of on-device scanning is to enable E2EE while still mitigating CSAM.

No, the point of on-device scanning is to enable authoritarian government overreach via a backdoor while still being able to add “end to end encryption” to a list of product features for marketing purposes. If Apple isn’t free to publish e2ee software for mass privacy without the government demanding they backdoor it for cops on threat of retaliation, then we don’t have first amendment rights in the USA.

I don't think the first amendment obligates companies to let you share kiddie porn via their services.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no ethical consumption under capitalism.

If that's the case then there can also be no ethical employment, either, both for employer and for employee. So that would seem to average out to neutrality.

This is precisely the sort of situation where taking the average is an awful way to ignore injustice - the poor get much poorer and the rich get much richer but everything is ‘neutral’ on average.

“There is no ethical X under capitalism” is not license to stick our heads in the sand and continue to consume without a second thought for those who are being exploited. It’s a reminder that things need to change, not only in all the little tiny drop-in-a-bucket ways that individuals can afford to contribute.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#469
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Artificially creating local market rates by trapping people is.

In what sense were these local rates "created artificially"? Are you suggesting that these people are being forced to work agaisnt their will?

Nah bro you’re misunderstanding me, because if the worker said "no" then the answer obviously is "no,”

But the thing is she's not gonna say "no", she would never say "no" because of the implication.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#470

The Kenyan moderators' PTSD reveals the fundamental paradox of content moderation: we've created an enterprise-grade trauma processing system that requires concentrated psychological harm to function, then act surprised when it causes trauma. The knee-jerk reaction of suggesting AI as the solution is, IMO, just wishful thinking - it's trying to technologically optimize away the inherent contradiction of bureaucratize…

The proper knee-jerk reaction would be to ban this kind of work, but that would also mean disallowing content sharing on Facebook. That is why this type of work will not go away. And AI is just not good enough to do this, I fully agree.

One of the unfortunate realities is that sometimes you need to be exposed to how grim reality can be as the alternative is living in a delusional bubble. However, one of the underlying points I was getting to is that often what is considered 'acceptable exposure' is highly politicized simply because control is attempting to be absolute and all encompassing. To me, comes across as overtly paternalistic especially when you start looking at the contradictions of 'good bad' vs 'bad bad' and why it is the way it is. I find it disappointing that we aren't allowed to self-censor, and even if we wanted to there simply aren't the tools available necessary for empowering people to make their own decisions at the point of consumption, but rather we employ filtering at the point of distribution which shifts the burden of decisions onto the platform and enact laws that focus that power even further into a limited number of hands.
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