Live data from Hacker News

Can AI do maths yet? Thoughts from a mathematician

xenaproject.wordpress.com

41–50 of 364 posts

Re: Can AI do maths yet? Thoughts from a mathematician

#41

It's fascinating that this has run into the exact same problem as the Quantum research. Ie, in the quantum research to demonstrate any valuable forward progress you must compute something that is impossible to do with a traditional computer. If you can't do it with a traditional computer, it suddenly becomes difficult to verify correctness (ie, you can't just check it was matching the traditional computer's answer. I…

I agree with the issue of ”is the test dataset leaking into the training dataset” being an issue with interpreting LLM capabilities in novel contexts, but not sure I follow what you mean on the quantum computing front.

My understanding is that many problems have solutions that are easier to verify than to solve using classical computing. e.g. prime factorization

Re: Can AI do maths yet? Thoughts from a mathematician

#44
post #27

I just spent a few days trying to figure out some linear algebra with the help of ChatGPT. It's very useful for finding conceptual information from literature (which for a not-professional-mathematician at least can be really hard to find and decipher). But in the actual math it constantly makes very silly errors. E.g. indexing a vector beyond its dimension, trying to do matrix decomposition for scalars and insisting…

Isn't Wolfram Alpha a better "ChatGPT of Math"?

Wolfram Alpha is better at actually doing math, but far worse at explaining what it’s doing, and why.

Re: Can AI do maths yet? Thoughts from a mathematician

#45

I am fairly optimistic about LLMs as a human math -> theorem-prover translator, and as a fan of Idris I am glad that the AI community is investing in Lean. As the author shows, the answer to "Can AI be useful for automated mathematical work?" is clearly "yes." But I am confident the answer to the question in the headline is "no, not for several decades." It's not just the underwhelming benchmark results discussed in…

To give a sense if scale: It’s not that o3 failed to solve that red blue rectangle problem once: o3 spent thousands of gpu hours putting out text about that problem, creating by my math about a million pages of text, and did not find the answer anywhere in those pages. For other problems it did find the answer around the million page mark, as at the ~$3000 per problem spend setting the score was still slowly creeping up.

Re: Can AI do maths yet? Thoughts from a mathematician

#46
post #27

I just spent a few days trying to figure out some linear algebra with the help of ChatGPT. It's very useful for finding conceptual information from literature (which for a not-professional-mathematician at least can be really hard to find and decipher). But in the actual math it constantly makes very silly errors. E.g. indexing a vector beyond its dimension, trying to do matrix decomposition for scalars and insisting…

Isn't Wolfram Alpha a better "ChatGPT of Math"?

Wolfram Alpha is mostly for "trivia" type problems. Or giving solutions to equations.

I was figuring out some mode decomposition methods such as ESPRIT and Prony and how to potentially extend/customize them. Wolfram Alpha doesn't seem to have a clue about such.

Re: Can AI do maths yet? Thoughts from a mathematician

#48
I don't have much to opine from an advanced maths perspective, but I'd like to point out a couple examples of where ChatGPT made basic errors in questions I asked it as an undergrad CS student.

1. I asked it to show me the derivation of a formula for the efficiency of Stop-and-Wait ARQ and it seemed to do it, but a day later, I realised that in one of the steps, it just made a term vanish to get to the next step. Obviously, I should have verified more carefully, but when I asked it to spot the mistake in that step, it did the same thing twice more with bs explanations of how the term is absorbed.

2. I asked it to provide me syllogisms that I could practice proving. An overwhelming number of the syllogisms it gave me were inconsistent and did not hold. This surprised me more because syllogisms are about the most structured arguments you can find, having been formalized centuries ago and discussed extensively since then. In this case, asking it to walk step-by-step actually fixed the issue.

Both of these were done on the free plan of ChatGPT, but I can remember if it was 4o or 4.

Re: Can AI do maths yet? Thoughts from a mathematician

#49
So here's what I'm perplexed about. There are statements in Presburger arithmetic that take time doubly exponential (or worse) in the size of the statement to reach via any path of the formal system whatsoever. These are arithmetic truths about the natural numbers. Can these statements be reached faster in ZFC? Possibly—it's well-known that there exist shorter proofs of true statements in more powerful consistent systems.

But the problem then is that one can suppose there are also true short statements in ZFC which likewise require doubly exponential time to reach via any path. Presburger Arithmetic is decidable whereas ZFC is not, so these statements would require the additional axioms of ZFC for shorter proofs, but I think it's safe to assume such statements exist.

Now let's suppose an AI model can resolve the truth of these short statements quickly. That means one of three things:

1) The AI model can discover doubly exponential length proof paths within the framework of ZFC.

2) There are certain short statements in the formal language of ZFC that the AI model cannot discover the truth of.

3) The AI model operates outside of ZFC to find the truth of statements in the framework of some other, potentially unknown formal system (and for arithmetical statements, the system must necessarily be sound).

How likely are each of these outcomes?

1) is not possible within any coherent, human-scale timeframe.

2) IMO is the most likely outcome, but then this means there are some really interesting things in mathematics that AI cannot discover. Perhaps the same set of things that humans find interesting. Once we have exhausted the theorems with short proofs in ZFC, there will still be an infinite number of short and interesting statements that we cannot resolve.

3) This would be the most bizarre outcome of all. If AI operates in a consistent way outside the framework of ZFC, then that would be equivalent to solving the halting problem for certain (infinite) sets of Turing machine configurations that ZFC cannot solve. That in itself itself isn't too strange (e.g., it might turn out that ZFC lacks an axiom necessary to prove something as simple as the Collatz conjecture), but what would be strange is that it could find these new formal systems efficiently. In other words, it would have discovered an algorithmic way to procure new axioms that lead to efficient proofs of true arithmetic statements. One could also view that as an efficient algorithm for computing BB(n), which obviously we think isn't possible. See Levin's papers on the feasibility of extending PA in a way that leads to quickly discovering more of the halting sequence.

Re: Can AI do maths yet? Thoughts from a mathematician

#50
> As an academic mathematician who spent their entire life collaborating openly on research problems and sharing my ideas with other people, it frustrates me [that] I am not even to give you a coherent description of some basic facts about this dataset, for example, its size. However there is a good reason for the secrecy. Language models train on large databases of knowledge, so you moment you make a database of maths questions public, the language models will train on it.

Well, yes and no. This is only true because we are talking about closed models from closed companies like so-called "OpenAI".

But if all models were truly open, then we could simply verify what they had been trained on, and make experiments with models that we could be sure had never seen the dataset.

Decades ago Microsoft (in the words of Ballmer and Gates) famously accused open source of being a "cancer" because of the cascading nature of the GPL.

But it's the opposite. In software, and in knowledge in general, the true disease is secrecy.

Post reply on HN