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More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

theguardian.com

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Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#441

Post by apelapan »

paganel wrote: post #325
nradov wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to trivialize traumatic experiences but I think many modern people, especially the pampered members of the professional-managerial class, have become too disconnected from reality. Anyone who has hunted or butchered animals is well aware of the fragility of life. This doesn't damage our concept of normal life.

My brother, an Eastern-European part-time farmer and full-time lorry driver, just texted me a couple of hours ago (I had told him I would call him in the next hour) that he might be with his hands full of meat by that time as “we’ve just butchered our pig Ghitza” (those sausages and piftii aren’t going to get made by themselves). Now, ask a laptop worker to butcher an animal whom used to have a name and to literally…

Laptop worker here. Have participated/been present in butcher of sheep and pigs and helped out making sausages a couple of times. It was fine. An interesting experience.

There is a lot of skill going in to it, so I couldn't do it myself. You need guidance of someone who is knowledgeable and has the proper tools and facilities for the job.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#442

Post by kdmtctl »

throwaway48476 wrote: post #408
kdmtctl wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just scrolled a lot to find this. And I do believe that moderators in a not so safe country seen a lot in their lives. But this also should make them less vulnerable for this kind of exposures and looks like it is not.

Seeing too much does cause PTSD. All I'm arguing is that some people love in a fantasy world where bad things don't happen so they end up voting for ridiculous things.

Isn't this a reason for Meta to outsource to countries where people somewhat immune to the first world problems? Aside of corruption and work force neglect?

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#443

Post by 7bit »

wkat4242 wrote: post #169
sandworm101 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A parade shooting is bad, very bad, but is still tame compared to the sorts of things to which website moderators are exposed on a daily/hourly basis. Footage of people being shot is actually allowed on many platforms. Just think of all the war footage that is so common these days. The dark stuff that moderators see is way way worse.

> Footage of people being shot is actually allowed on many platforms. It's also part of almost every American cop and military show and movie. Of course it's not real but it looks the same.

It absolutely does not look the same. You instinctively know that what you see is just acting. I somehow don't believe that you have seen a real video of a person getting shot or beheaded or sucked into a lathe. Seeing a life getting wiped out is emotionally completely different because that's more than a picture you are emotionally processing. It looks only the same if you have zero empathy or are a psychopath.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#444

Post by rnewme »

jkestner wrote: post #117
rnewme wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the risk of being in a society in general, it's just that we interact with people outside way less now. If one doesn't like it, they can always be a hermit.

Not just that, but that algorithms are driving us to the extremes. I used to think it was just that humans were not meant to have this many social connections, but it's more about how these connections are mediated, and by whom. Worth reading Zitron's essay if you haven't already. It sounds obvious, but the simple cataloging of all the indignities we take for granted builds up to a bigger condemnation than just Big T…

Definitely. It's a perfect mix of factors to enable dark sides of our personas. I belive everyone has certain level of near sociopathic perverse curiosity, and certain amount of need to push the limits, if there are no consequences for such behaviors. Algorithms can only affect so much. But gore sites, efukt, countless whatsapp/facebook/signal/whatever group that teens post vile things in are mostly due to childish morbid curiosity and not due to everyone being a literal psycho.

I'll take a look at the essay, thanks.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#445

Post by rnewme »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #354
rnewme wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the risk of being in a society in general, it's just that we interact with people outside way less now. If one doesn't like it, they can always be a hermit.

Is there any way to look at this that doesn't resort to black or white thinking? That's a rather extreme view in itself that could use some nuance and moderation.

I'm not very good with words so I can only hope the reader will be able to understand that things are not black and white, but that its a spectrum that depends on countless factors, cultural, societal and other.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#446

Post by Nasrudith »

Eisenstein wrote: post #155
AnarchismIsCool wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of people who spend time working with livestock on a farm describe a certain acceptance and understanding of death that most modern people have lost.

[flagged]

It isn't farmers, but oncologists are notably more likely to choose hospice for themselves when it comes to cancer care. It is similar for familiarity with death + end of life decisions.

Of course that case is probably related to knowing the actual probabilities and the suffering involved. Medicine isn't just "drink a potion and be instantly cured or instantly die", it is a long painful process.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#447

Post by Nasrudith »

yodsanklai wrote: post #215

I'm wondering if there are precedents in other domains. There are other jobs where you do see disturbing things as part of your duty. E.g. doctors, cops, first responders, prison guards and so on... What makes moderation different? and how should it be handled so that it reduces harm and risks? surely banning social media or not moderating content aren't options. AI helps to some extent but doesn't solve the issue en…

I suspect what makes it different is the concentration to just the flagged is what turns it into especially traumatizing. Of course there is probably a bell curve of sorts for "experiences" vs "level of personal trauma". One incident might be enough for someone "weaker" to develop PTSD. Not a slight on the afflicted, just how things are.

Casual Facebook viewers may stumble across something disturbing on it, but they certainly don't get PTSD at the rate of the poor moderators. Likewise the professionals usually have their own professional exposure levels to messed up stuff. Meanwhile child pornography investigation departments who have to catalogue the evidence are notorious for suffering poor mental health even with heavy measures taken.

There is already the 'blacklist hash' approach to known bad images which can help reduce exposure. So they don't all need to be exposed to say the same cartel brutal execution video, the bot takes care of it. I don't know anything about Facebook's internal practices but I would presume they already are doing this or similar with their tech hiring base.

Dilution is likely the answer for how to make it more palitible and less traumatizing. Keep the really bad stuff exposure at similar proportions to what other careers experience. Not having 'report button' and 'checking popular content' as separate tasks and teams would probably help a little bit. I suspect the moderators wouldn't be as traumatized if they just had to click through trending posts all day. A dillution approach would still have to deal with the logistical trade-offs for what could be viable. Increasing the moderation payroll a hundred-fold and making them work at effectively 1% efficiency would make for better moderator experiences, but Facebook would be understandably reluctant to go from 5% revenue content moderation budget to 50% revenue content moderation.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#448

Post by Nasrudith »

apitman wrote: post #278
yodsanklai wrote: post #215

I'm wondering if there are precedents in other domains. There are other jobs where you do see disturbing things as part of your duty. E.g. doctors, cops, first responders, prison guards and so on... What makes moderation different? and how should it be handled so that it reduces harm and risks? surely banning social media or not moderating content aren't options. AI helps to some extent but doesn't solve the issue en…

> surely banning social media or not moderating content aren't options Why not? What good has social media done that can't be accomplished in some other way, when weighed against the clear downsides? That's an honest question, I'm probably missing lots.

Would we really be better served with media returning to being un-interactive and unresponsive? Where just getting on TV was something of note instead of everyone being on the internet. Where there was widespread downright cultish obsession with celebrities. The "We interrupt this news live from Iraq for celebrity getting out of prison news" era.

I think not. The gatekeepers of the old media pretty much died for a reason, that they seriously sucked at their job. Open social media and everyone having a camera in their pocket is what allowed us to basically disprove UFO sightings and prove routine police abuse of power.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#449

Post by keybored »

bowsamic wrote: post #409
Der_Einzige wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually reckoning with this stuff leads people into believing in anti-natalism, negative utilitarinism, Scopenhaur/Philipp Mainlander (Mainlander btw was not just pro-suicide, he actually killed himself!), and the voluntary extinction movement. This terrified other philosophers like Nietzsche, who spends most of his work defending reality even if it's absolute shit. "Amor Fati", "Infinite Regress/Eternal Recurrence"…

I felt this way for the first 30 years of my life. Then I received treatment for depression (psychoanalysis) and finally tasted joy for the first time in my entire life. Now I love life. YMMV EDIT: If you’re interested what actually happened is that I was missing the prerequisite early childhood experience that enables one to feel secure in reality. If you check, all the people who have this feeling of philosophical/…

[deleted]

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#450

Post by lazide »

motorest wrote: post #437
Der_Einzige wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But psychoanalysis is literally psudoscientific nonsense. You got spooked.

> But psychoanalysis is literally psudoscientific nonsense. You got spooked. OP got spooked to stop suffering and love life instead? Is that your cautionary tale?

‘Warning! You may end up irrationally happy and fulfilled!’
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