29p / kWh doesn't hold a candle to PG&E costs in the San Francisco Bay Area. It's ironic that it's quite a bit cheaper to use natural gas here, since we're supposed to convert to electricity to save the planet.
For reference, I think we get around 60-65c/kWh here... I sometimes hangout on /r/homelab, and people are talking about their 600-700W homelab setup. That would cost about 300-350$/month here.
Why are UK electricity bills so expensive?
101–110 of 353 posts
Re: Why are UK electricity bills so expensive?
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
> but also those operators get detected and, months later, fined out the wazoo by the regulator for pulling a stunt like that. The ones that were detected were fined, we don't know how much of that goes on but more subtly.
How does one subtly turn off a power station? National Grid plc has minute-by-minute graphs. It can see you taking the piss, and its friends in Ofgem are on speed-dial. https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-08/Final%2...
Re: Why are UK electricity bills so expensive?
#103An important reason that power is expensive in the UK is that it doesn't use zonal pricing and is effectively not giving the right price signals to consumers of power to move closer to where the cheap power is (e.g. data centers) or to conserve power when power is expensive; or producers of power to invest in power generation closer to where the power is scarce and expensive. Another point to make is that the nationa…
While I sympathise with the notion of zonal pricing, there are side-effects to making the change, especially when power is intermittent e.g. https://www.uksteel.org/steel-news-2024/businesses-write-to-... . I'm not sure what the correct metric is.
> the national wholesale price of power in the UK is based on the price of the most expensive thing in the market at any point
How much of the electricity demand goes through a bilateral agreement (or one where generation and retail are the same organisation, like EDF)? Also I seem to recall that the "pay the highest accepted bidder model" used to be argued as lowering the bids, resulting in a lower cost to the consumer!
Re: Why are UK electricity bills so expensive?
#104Yeah the "network costs" bit should probably have a caveat about how they are a natural monopoly and are absolutely rinsing the UK for profits. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/20/unite-union... "Supplier costs and margins" probably should take a fair bit of the blame too. When Thatcher privatised the UK energy industry to make it "competitive", they basically created an entire complex web of middlemen.…
Out of the £1700 average annual bill, supplier profits are £43...this is significantly higher than has been the case normally because of the volatility in energy prices. This return is also controlled by the regulator.
For scale, the cost of government subsidies is £183.
Predictably the first thing the incoming government did was: announce massive new subsidies, and create a state-owned energy company.
Network costs have also gone up because of the well-known problems with performing work on any kind of infrastructure in the UK.
The politics are part of the reason why costs are so high. We constantly rotate through insane policies that relate to the fever dreams of a lawyer. The reason why prices are high is because we have policies in place to increase prices. Companies are not making big profits (again, their returns are controlled by the regulators). Look at share prices, collapsing in the sector (unless they are getting government money).
Re: Why are UK electricity bills so expensive?
#105> The UK has achieved the fastest rate of grid decarbonisation among advanced economies. A lot of this progress occurred when renewables were still expensive, so we are stuck with a cost hangover. Luckily, renewables are getting much cheaper, so the tradeoffs in future policy are very different. A silver lining at least. I’m old, so won’t see the benefits of this I’m sure, but it’s still nice to know we’ve made some…
Re: Why are UK electricity bills so expensive?
#106I find it so weird that UK citizens have often just sort of passively chosen to be poor. Like they still had food rationing for years after WW2. Is there some sort of cultural blind spot which prevents them from understanding that there are better ways to do things?
What a bizarre thing to say. I guess there are some examples of self sabotage, such as Brexit, but no, on the whole people in the UK do not choose to be poor. Like any nation we are at the mercy of the outcomes of the decisions of our politicians and larger global effects that are out of our control. Also, there are plenty of wealthy people in the UK. You do know that right? The UK is still around 6th in the nominal…
The UK has many policies in place that are designed to limit output. These policies are not only not unpopular, they are wildly popular and are basically impossible to change.
Housing is one, infrastructure is another. Like people say we aren't choosing to poor...HS2 is the most expensive rail project ever per mile, double the cost of the outrageously expensive one in California. Why? Because our system gives unlimited power to lawyers, consultants...we were building bat tunnels (literally tunnels for bats) that cost £100m.
And it isn't limited to this. Look at the last Budget: we are in the middle of fiscal collapse. Tens of billions for green energy projects that add to the cost of bills, huge pay rises for the public sector (where productivity is at the same level as 1997), on and on.
How can you not think this stuff is intentional? There is no reason for almost everything we are doing, it makes absolutely no sense but we are being driven off the cliff by politicians, civil servants, lawyers, media/PR, consultants who control this country...to rephrase that: you are saying that there was no reason 11th century Britain couldn't become very rich when it was funnelling all the money to monasteries that were producing nothing but fat monks? The intention of the system isn't to make Britain rich, it is make people inside the system rich...which it is doing (again, HS2 cost £1bn for a railway that didn't get built...where do you think that money goes? there is no railway but there were tens of thousands of consultants...).
Re: Why are UK electricity bills so expensive?
#107Third option not discussed: have the military leverage its existing nuclear reactor competency to build a fleet of nationalized nuclear power generation stations. I'm not saying that they should tile the island with submarine-scale reactors, I'm saying that their supply chain for building those knows how to build nuclear power stations. The only thing which makes this prospect expensive, is the lack of political will…
And how exactly would adding more of the most expensive way to generate power help reduce costs? See: https://www.theguardian.com/news/ng-interactive/2024/may/24/...
The reason we are in this position is because we looked at building nuclear in the mid-2010s, the cost would have been about half current prices, we didn't build because they were too expensive.
Nothing has been more costly than not investing in capacity.
Re: Why are UK electricity bills so expensive?
#108An important reason that power is expensive in the UK is that it doesn't use zonal pricing and is effectively not giving the right price signals to consumers of power to move closer to where the cheap power is (e.g. data centers) or to conserve power when power is expensive; or producers of power to invest in power generation closer to where the power is scarce and expensive. Another point to make is that the nationa…
Marginal cost based pricing is extremely unintuitive to those outside of the field, but nearly all economists support it. The reason is that this eliminates a lot of the gaming in pay-as-bid designs and helps incentivize investment in more efficient/cheaper generation, while driving out less efficient clunkers that may not be profitable anymore. The reality is of course far more complicated. These markets have saved untold amounts of money by optimizing over large regions, but you can also point out "missing money" problems where there simply isn't enough investment in generators with access to firm fuel (as opposed to when we just had monopoly utilities). As a result, much of the US has an "at risk" or "very high risk" of not having enough generation during summer/winter peak.
Re: Why are UK electricity bills so expensive?
#109Is 906 GBP (~1100 USD) typical for a household? That seems outrageously high.
In a historic home in the Midwest a single month in the depths of of the winter could easily be 700-800 usd.
Re: Why are UK electricity bills so expensive?
#110Some of these are "costs" which reduce costs elsewhere. Smart meters for example, though rollout has hit snags and they've become targets for weird conspiracy theories, they are basically designed to give better real time info on electricity demand which helps with managing the grid. This in theory should save money elsewhere. Similarly for CfD. Yes the government may on net be paying a subsidy to get wind power buil…
But why do you need smart meters at the level of individual houses? Wouldn't putting them on substations get the same benefit with much less cost?