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Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

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Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#31

Post by tialaramex »

teddyh wrote: post #22
tialaramex wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unlike trademarks where enforcement is required to preserve the trademark That's a myth. It suits trademark lawyers and aggressive owners to pretend this is obligatory but it isn't.

Really? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Generic_trademark... >

Yes, genericization is not actually a risk that aggressive lawyers can help you with, except in the sense that if they bankrupt you now it's not a problem any more.

Genericization occurs when more or less everybody uses your word mark instead of a generic product class. But you can't actually sue everybody. And if you chase say, popular media, it just becomes a joke - Stephen Colbert can't use the word literally everybody you know uses because his bosses will get sued, ha ha, but it doesn't stop you and it won't stop genericization from happening. Notice you won't find any courts checking that you spent enough on legal fees as otherwise you lose for inadequate enforcement. They only care that ordinary people, who you wouldn't sue anyway, used this word in a generic way.

Beyond that, it's not at all obvious that this is a problem you'd want to prevent. Why are Kleenex and Xerox so well known? It's surely not because they're unsuccessful!

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#32

Post by MarkMoxon »

mgkimsal wrote: post #30

Very curious how Mark Moxon was able to understand and comment so much of the code. Just... a very big fan with a lot of free time? No idea how this will be formatted, but the level of understanding in the comments is quite deep for just having access to the original source. Or did the original source have this level of comments as well? How long does a project like this take to comment? .QQ22 SKIP 2 ; The two hypers…

This should answer your question:

https://elite.bbcelite.com/about_site/about_this_project.htm...

Some parts of Elite were documented prior to my project, particularly the procedural generation and ship data blocks. But none of it was documented to this level; it's taken time, lots of it!

I love this game, and I figured it deserved a proper homage. Or, to put it another way, this is a labour of love. :-)

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#33

Post by WillAdams »

MarkMoxon wrote: post #32
mgkimsal wrote: post #30

Very curious how Mark Moxon was able to understand and comment so much of the code. Just... a very big fan with a lot of free time? No idea how this will be formatted, but the level of understanding in the comments is quite deep for just having access to the original source. Or did the original source have this level of comments as well? How long does a project like this take to comment? .QQ22 SKIP 2 ; The two hypers…

This should answer your question: https://elite.bbcelite.com/about_site/about_this_project.htm... Some parts of Elite were documented prior to my project, particularly the procedural generation and ship data blocks. But none of it was documented to this level; it's taken time, lots of it! I love this game, and I figured it deserved a proper homage. Or, to put it another way, this is a labour of love. :-)

Have you considered turning this into a book?

If you used Literate Programming principles:

http://literateprogramming.com/

then it could become a seamless narrative which could be very expressive.

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#34

Post by WillAdams »

Koshcheiushko wrote: post #26

This is really good resource for someone, who wants to learn assembly. Can somebody please share this good or closer documented source code in other languages such as C++, C or any other.

That would be the domain of "Literate Programming":

http://literateprogramming.com/

esp. see:

http://literateprogramming.com/adventure.pdf

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#35

Post by MarkMoxon »

WillAdams wrote: post #33
MarkMoxon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should answer your question: https://elite.bbcelite.com/about_site/about_this_project.htm... Some parts of Elite were documented prior to my project, particularly the procedural generation and ship data blocks. But none of it was documented to this level; it's taken time, lots of it! I love this game, and I figured it deserved a proper homage. Or, to put it another way, this is a labour of love. :-)

Have you considered turning this into a book? If you used Literate Programming principles: http://literateprogramming.com/ then it could become a seamless narrative which could be very expressive.

Yeah, it's a bit tricky when the code you are documenting is copyright, and you aren't the copyright owner. Website is one thing, but publishing a book? I suspect that is asking for trouble.

Also, books can't be updated, and I update this stuff all the time...

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#36

Post by FrustratedMonky »

MarkMoxon wrote: post #29
tialaramex wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although C probably counted as a modern language back then (after all it's not B) today I think "modern" probably means at least Java and likely something from this century like Rust or Typescript.

Oolite is normally quoted at this point. I think it's in Objective C? But exactly how much it relates to the original game's code, I don't know. https://github.com/OoliteProject/oolite

anything would be great.

Oolite does look like Mac, done in COCO? Even Mac/Coco looks dated. Not the screens, they actual look is great.

A Rust version would be cool.

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#37

Post by WillAdams »

MarkMoxon wrote: post #35
WillAdams wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered turning this into a book? If you used Literate Programming principles: http://literateprogramming.com/ then it could become a seamless narrative which could be very expressive.

Yeah, it's a bit tricky when the code you are documenting is copyright, and you aren't the copyright owner. Website is one thing, but publishing a book? I suspect that is asking for trouble. Also, books can't be updated, and I update this stuff all the time...

Maybe just make a PDF and publish that to the site?

I am doing that at:

https://github.com/WillAdams/gcodepreview/blob/main/gcodepre...

(but admittedly it's a very different project and no copyright complexities)

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#38

Post by MarkMoxon »

WillAdams wrote: post #37
MarkMoxon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's a bit tricky when the code you are documenting is copyright, and you aren't the copyright owner. Website is one thing, but publishing a book? I suspect that is asking for trouble. Also, books can't be updated, and I update this stuff all the time...

Maybe just make a PDF and publish that to the site? I am doing that at: https://github.com/WillAdams/gcodepreview/blob/main/gcodepre... (but admittedly it's a very different project and no copyright complexities)

Honestly, for me personally and on this specific project with its specific history of copyright issues (look it up!), that would be crossing the line into disrespecting the copyright situation.

Websites are ethereal, in a sense, as they are easy to switch off and hard to copy and distribute. PDFs and books are the opposite. Sure, websites get archived and repos get forked, but I think PDFs and books fall into a different area.

I run these projects very cautiously and very carefully. I don't think publishing a book or PDF containing copyright material is a good idea in this instance, to be honest!

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#39

Post by kstrauser »

MarkMoxon wrote: post #38
WillAdams wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe just make a PDF and publish that to the site? I am doing that at: https://github.com/WillAdams/gcodepreview/blob/main/gcodepre... (but admittedly it's a very different project and no copyright complexities)

Honestly, for me personally and on this specific project with its specific history of copyright issues (look it up!), that would be crossing the line into disrespecting the copyright situation. Websites are ethereal, in a sense, as they are easy to switch off and hard to copy and distribute. PDFs and books are the opposite. Sure, websites get archived and repos get forked, but I think PDFs and books fall into a diffe…

I understand and respect your opinion there. In the spectrum of copyright violation, I might be willing to let my kid install a copy of a game I bought on their own computer, but I would definitely not sell copies of it.

But it’s a massive bummer to me that copyright is preventing someone from publishing their research on a 40 year old game that hasn’t been available for sale in decades. I don’t know exactly where that lands on my moral spectrum, but I put it far closer to the left than to the right, legalities aside.

Re: Documented and annotated source code for Elite on the Commodore 64

#40

Post by cptnapalm »

MarkMoxon wrote: post #25
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #24

Has anybody done something similar, but converted to a modern language?

Yes. The original Elite was reverse-engineered into C by Christian Pinder as part of the Elite: The New Kind project. The source is out there. It's a brilliant bit of work.

Note: there's a crash bug. If you try to look at the local sun, the game will try to explode it, but suns can't explode so the game crashes.
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