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Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

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Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#41

Post by knute »

cdot2 wrote: post #39
gadtfly wrote: post #6

See also the Mark 14 torpedo, the primary American torpedo in WWII, which didn't actually work for the first 2 years of the war because they had never bothered to actually test it because it would be too expensive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_14_torpedo

If I remember correctly part of the issue was that they used magnetic detector based firing systems and only tested them off the coast of California. When they fired them elsewhere the Earth's magnetic field was different enough that the detonators failed.

Not only did the magnetic fuses not work, the impact fuses would collapse and fail if the torpedo made a direct hit. And the torpedoes would consistently run deeper than they were set to. US torpedoes in the early stages of the war were nearly completely ineffective.

Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#42

Post by jvanderbot »

cdot2 wrote: post #39
gadtfly wrote: post #6

See also the Mark 14 torpedo, the primary American torpedo in WWII, which didn't actually work for the first 2 years of the war because they had never bothered to actually test it because it would be too expensive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_14_torpedo

If I remember correctly part of the issue was that they used magnetic detector based firing systems and only tested them off the coast of California. When they fired them elsewhere the Earth's magnetic field was different enough that the detonators failed.

I had never heard that theory before!

FWIW, everyone in the beginning of WWII had magnetic detonator / torpedo problems, so it couldn't be just that. They were difficult to depth-keep just right to pass under a ship but within detection, for one thing. The sub captain had to correctly identify the ship, look up the draft, and call down to manually set the depth keeping. (Good luck in the swells of north atlantic). Often it just didn't use that depth anyway, due again to issues with design/testing.

The contact detonators had their own issues, for one they couldn't explode at an oblique angle, instead needed near-right-angle impact - but even then had a high dud ratio.

So, in theory the magnetic ones were preferable, even though standard doctrine was to fire for right-angle impact regardless (it makes evasion much more difficult, for one thing).

Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#44

Post by dec0dedab0de »

vanderZwan wrote: post #37
potato3732842 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The torpedo grade ethanol (fuel grade alcohol generally) necessitates quality control than ethanol for consumption because it has to pair with a precise number of oxygen molecules (which in the case of a torpedo are pre-allocated so you can't just tolerate it running lean or rich without a huge change in range) and produce known energy in the process and calling a bunch of subs and ships back to have their ethanol te…

> The cleanliness and hygiene controls along the way are going to be lesser. It's not like it's being made in a food factory. Sincere question: isn't "hygiene" usually referring only to bacteria, viruses and other organic contamination? Don't get me wrong, I'm with you that I'd worry about contamination with all kinds of other toxic stuff.

No, hygiene means anything done for the purpose of maintaining good health. It is commonly used as a synonym for cleanliness.

Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#46

Post by lazide »

ethbr1 wrote: post #5
m463 wrote: post #3

"American torpedoes utilized 180-proof ethyl alcohol as fuel for the miniature steam engines that drove them toward their targets." I wonder if this was by design ... I think isopropyl alcohol is probably generally available/popular only because it is not drinkable.

Apparently modern US production ratios for ethyl vs isopropyl alcohols are roughly 100:1. Expect they would have been the same during the war era, hence engineering torpedos to run on a more widely available fuel.

It’s currently that way because of ethanol in fuel correct? It seems unlikely it would have been that way during WW2?

Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#47

Post by cafard »

natmaka wrote: post #7

In France, around 1985, an old man said to me that just after WW2 he was, as a French soldier, working in Germany in some airfield or military site which was then used to host Allied soldiers of various nationalities. They had a problem with Soviet soldiers dying due to some poisonous/toxic substance they consumed. It lasted for days, maybe weeks. Nobody had a clue. Then they realized that some/many Soviet soldiers h…

According to my father, a number of GIs blinded or otherwise injured themselves experimenting with antifreeze around VE day.

Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#48

Post by gullywhumper »

ranger207 wrote: post #4

There's a story from the USS Drum (now a museum ship in Mobile, Alabama) that the skipper eventually gave up trying to get his crew to stop drinking the torpedo juice, and just ordered them to leave enough alcohol for a 1,500 yard range (out of 4,500yd or 9,000yd at slower speeds). Their success rate actually went up as a result, because they were making shots from much closer in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZQ-…

The museum also includes the battleship USS Alabama, a good collection of aircraft, and then some tanks, artillery, and other equipment. My grandpa took me there every summer as a kid and I could never get enough.

Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#49

Post by wildzzz »

vanderZwan wrote: post #37
potato3732842 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The torpedo grade ethanol (fuel grade alcohol generally) necessitates quality control than ethanol for consumption because it has to pair with a precise number of oxygen molecules (which in the case of a torpedo are pre-allocated so you can't just tolerate it running lean or rich without a huge change in range) and produce known energy in the process and calling a bunch of subs and ships back to have their ethanol te…

> The cleanliness and hygiene controls along the way are going to be lesser. It's not like it's being made in a food factory. Sincere question: isn't "hygiene" usually referring only to bacteria, viruses and other organic contamination? Don't get me wrong, I'm with you that I'd worry about contamination with all kinds of other toxic stuff.

Probably more like trace amounts of heavy metals and other things like benzene or residue from other substances from the vessels. Stuff that would be awful to consume but likely won't make much of a difference in fuel. Like with anything else, the price will increase for how ever pure you need the substance to be. Using alcohol as a solvent doesn't require much purity, any other alcohols in the mix will still do the job. If you want to be able to drink it, then the alcohol needs to be as pure as possible.

Re: Torpedo juice: Legendary, illegal WWII liquor drunk in Alaska and the world

#50

Post by pfdietz »

kleton wrote: post #16
cyberax wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethyl alcohol is _cheap_. You literally need just a bunch of sugar, yeast, and a still. Straightforward, low-tech, and safe. Isopropyl alcohol needs to be synthesized from acetone, which itself is synthesized.

Acetone–butanol–ethanol fermentation was itself a critical WWI technology, as cordite required acetone. That fermentation process requires only sugars and an acetobutylicum strain. The first president of Israel developed this process.

Yes, Chaim Weizmann.

When was this supplanted by the cumene process?

EDIT: this process was developed from 1939-1945.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumene_process

https://shop.tarjomeplus.com/UploadFileEn/TPLUS_EN_2421.pdf

BTW, isopropyl alcohol is industrially produced from propylene, not acetone.

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