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Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

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Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#341
> The more I speak with fellow engineers, the more I hear that some of them are either using AI to help them code, or feed entire projects to AI and let the AI code, while they do code review and adjustments.

I don't see this trend. It just sounds like a weird thing to say, it fundamentally misunderstands what the job is

From my experience, software engineering is a lot more human than how it gets portrayed in the media. You learn the business you're working with, who the stakeholders are, who needs what, how to communicate your changes and to whom. You're solving problems for other people. In order to do that, you have to understand what their needs are

Maybe this reflects my own experience at a big company where there's more back and forth to deal with. It's not glamorous or technically impressive, but no company is perfect

If what companies really want is just some cheap way to shovel code, LLMs are more expensive and less effective than the other well known way of cheaping out

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#342
I can chip in from my tech consulting job where we ship a few GenAI projects to several AWS clients via Amazon Bedrock. I'm senior level but most people here are pretty much insulated.

I think whoever commented once here about more complex problems being tackled, (and the nature of these problems becoming broader) is right on the money. Newer patterns around LLM-based applications are emerging and having seen them first hand, they seem like a slightly different paradigm shift in programming. But they are still, at heart, programming questions.

A practical example: company sees GenAI chatbot, wants one of their own, based on their in-house knowledge base.

Right then and there there is a whole slew of new business needs with necessary human input to make it work that ensues.

- Is training your own LLM needed? See a Data Engineer/Data engineering team.

- If going with a ready-made solution, which LLM to use instead? Engineer. Any level.

- Infrastructure around the LLM of choice. Get DevOps folk in here. Cost assessment is real and LLMs are pricey. You have to be on top of your game to estimate stuff here.

- Guard rails, output validation. Engineers.

- Hooking up to whatever app front-end the company has. Engineers come to the rescue again.

All these have valid needs for engineers, architects/staff/senior what have you — programmers. At the end of the day, these problems devolve into the same ol' https://programming-motherfucker.com

And I'm OK with that so far.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#343
There's no reality in the next twenty years where a non-technical individual is going to converse with a persistent agentic AI to produce a typical SaaS product and maintain it over a period of many years. I think we'll see stabs at this space, and I think we'll see some companies try to replace engineering teams wholesale, and these attempts will almost universally feel kinda sorta ok for the first N weeks, then nosedive and inevitably result in the re-hiring of humans (and probably the failure of many projects and businesses as well).

Klarna said they stopped hiring a year ago because AI solved all their problems [1]. That's why they have 55 job openings right now, obviously [2] (including quite a few listed as "Contractor"; the utterly classic "we fucked up our staffing"). This kind of disconnect isn't even surprising; its exactly what I predict. Business leadership nowadays is so far disconnected from the reality of what's happening day-to-day in their businesses that they say things like this with total authenticity, they get a bunch of nods, and things just keep going the way they've been going. Benioff at Salesforce said basically the same thing. These are, put simply, people who have such low legibility on the mechanism of how their business makes money that they believe they understand how it can be replaced; and they're surrounded by men who nod and say "oh yes mark, yes of course we'll stop hiring engineers" then somehow conveniently that message never makes it to HR because those yes-men who surround him are the real people who run the business.

AI cannot replace people; AI augments people. If you say you've stopped hiring thanks to AI, what you're really saying is that your growth has stalled. The AI might grant your existing workforce an N% boon to productivity, but that's a one-time boon barring any major model breakthroughs (don't count on it). If you want to unlock more growth, you'll need to hire more people, but what you're stating is that you don't think more growth is in the cards for your business.

That's what these leaders are saying, at the end of the day; and its a reflection of the macroeconomic climate, not of the impacts of AI. These are dead businesses. They'll lumber along for decades, but their growth is gone.

[1] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/klarna-stopped-hiring-ago-rep...

[2] https://klarnagroup.teamtailor.com/#jobs

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#344
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs aren't supposed to do basic math, but be chat agents. Wolfram Alpha can't do chat.

Math is a major part of programming. In fact programming without math is impossible. And if you go all the way down to bare metal it’s all math. We are shifting bits through incredibly complex abstractions.

No, math can describe programming, but that's also true of everything. You wouldn't say "Playing basketball without math is impossible" even though it's technically true because you don't need to know or use math to play basketball. You also can do a ton of programming without knowing any math, although you will more than likely need to learn arithmetic to write enterprise code.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#345
It’s simple, as soon as it can write code faster than you can read it you can’t trust it anymore. Because you can’t verify it: Trusting trust.

If it keeps you busy reading code, if it keeps all of us busy consuming its output. That is how so will conquer us. Drowning us in personal highly engaging content.

Stop using llms, if they can solve your problem than your problem is not worth solving.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The answer is obviously yes: There is a very pervasive expectation that LLM's will continue to improve, and it seems odd to suggest otherwise. There is hundreds of billions of dollars being spent on AI training and that number is increasing each year. That makes an assumption that throwing dollars on AI training is a surefire way to solve the many shortcomings of LLMs. It is a very optimistic assumption. > Why woul…

> That makes an assumption that throwing dollars on AI training is a surefire way to solve the many shortcomings of LLMs. It is a very optimistic assumption. That's not an assumption that I am personally making. That's what experts in the field believe. > "The Internet" basically encompasses all meaningful sources of data available, especially if we are talking specifically about software development. But even beyond…

> That's not an assumption that I am personally making. That's what experts in the field believe.

People invested in something believe that throwing money at it will make it better? Color me shocked.

"eat meat, says the butcher"

The rest of your answer amount to optimistic assumptions that yes, AI future is rosy, based on nothing but a desire that it will, because of course it will.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#347

Nothing because I’m a senior and LLM’s never provide code that pass my sniff test, and it remains a waste of time. I have a job at a place I love and get more people in my direct network and extended contacting me about work than ever before in my 20 year career. And finally I keep myself sharp by always making sure I challenge myself creatively. I’m not afraid to delve into areas to understand them that might look “…

> Nothing because I’m a senior and LLM’s never provide code that pass my sniff test, and it remains a waste of time. I am constantly surprised how prevalent this attitude is. ChatGPT was only just released in 2022. Is there some expectation that these things won't improve? > LLM’s never provide code that pass my sniff test This is ego speaking.

LLMs are great for simple, common, boring things.

As soon as you have something less common, it will give you widely incorrect garbage that does not make any sense. Even worse, it APPEARS correct, but it won’t work or will do something else completely.

And I use 4o and o1 every day. Mostly for boilerplate and boring stuff.

I have colleagues that submit ChatGPT generated code and I’ll immediately recognize it because it is just very bad. The colleague would have tested it, so the code does work, but it is always bad, weird or otherwise unusual. Functional, but not nice.

ChatGPT can give very complicated solutions to things that can be solved with a one-liner.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#348
post #122
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most of the actual systems we work on will simply start disappearing. What systems do you think are going to start disappearing? I'm unclear how LLMs are contributing to systems becoming redundant.

Not parent poster, but I imagine it will be a bit like the horror stories of companies (ab)using spreadsheets in lieu of a proper program or database: They will use an LLM to get half-working stuff "for free" and consider it a bargain, especially if the detectable failures can be spot-fixed by an intern doing data-entry. I think we'll see it first in internal reporting tools, where the stakeholder tries to explain so…

> Not parent poster, but I imagine it will be a bit like the horror stories of companies (ab)using spreadsheets in lieu of a proper program or database: They will use an LLM to get half-working stuff "for free" and consider it a bargain, especially if the detectable failures can be spot-fixed by an intern doing data-entry.

When I read things like this I really wonder if half of the people on HackerNews have ever held a job in software development (or a job at all to be fair).

None of what you describe is even remotely close to reality.

Stuff that half works gets you fully fired by the client.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a LLM (or any other tool) makes so that team of 8 can get the same results in the same time as it used to take a team of 10 to do, then I would count that as "replaced 2 programmers" - even if there's no particular person for which the whole job has been replaced, that's not a meaningful practical difference, replacing a significant fraction of every programmer's job has the same outcomes and impacts as replacing…

Fav anecdote from ages ago: When hand-held power tools became a thing, the Hollywood set builder’s union was afraid of this exact same thing - people would be replaced by the tools. Instead, productions built bigger sets (the ceiling was raised) and smaller productions could get in on things (the floor was lowered). I always took that to mean “people aren’t going to spend less to do the job - they’ll just do a bigger…

This is a real thing. LLMs are tools, not humans. They truly do bring interesting, bigger problems.

Have people seen some of the recent software being churned out? Hint, it's not all GenAI bubblespit. A lot of it is killer, legitimately good stuff.

Re: Ask HN: SWEs how do you future-proof your career in light of LLMs?

#350

Nothing because I’m a senior and LLM’s never provide code that pass my sniff test, and it remains a waste of time. I have a job at a place I love and get more people in my direct network and extended contacting me about work than ever before in my 20 year career. And finally I keep myself sharp by always making sure I challenge myself creatively. I’m not afraid to delve into areas to understand them that might look “…

> Nothing because I’m a senior and LLM’s never provide code that pass my sniff test, and it remains a waste of time. I am constantly surprised how prevalent this attitude is. ChatGPT was only just released in 2022. Is there some expectation that these things won't improve? > LLM’s never provide code that pass my sniff test This is ego speaking.

> This is ego speaking.

It absolutely isn't. I have yet to find an area where LLM-generated code solves the kinds of problems I work on more reliably, effectively, of efficiently than I do.

I'm also not interested in spending my mental energy on code reviews for an uncomphrehending token-prediction golem, let alone finding or fixing bugs in the code it blindly generates. That's a waste of my time and a special kind of personal hell.

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