DIY B&B • Hacker News Board

Re: DIY B&B

#121

Post by rprasad » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 10:07 PM UTC

sopooneo wrote: post #115

DanBC wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people own their stuff and they're damn well liable to do what they want to with it. You own your car. You are not allowed to set up as a cab service without some kind of insurance and registration. You own your home; you own the kitchen. You could not set up as a restaurant without a bunch of paperwork. > Laws which were used to increase the quality of hotel stays back in 1890 have extremely little applicability t…

I would argue that your very sensible demands, for a sanitary kitchen and proper fire escape, can be seen to by market forces. Only rent AirBnB places whose reviews convince you they are appropriate. You can not be the only one who feels as you do. And with a new market like this, where people would not reasonably expect the automatic protection they ostensibly enjoy at traditional hotels, it is all the more plausibl…

And I would respond that history has repeatedly demonstrated that market forces will not see to proper fire escapes or sanitary kitchens. If market forces had been adequate, we would not have such laws today.

Moreover, the type of people who would pay extra for a sanitary kitchen or a proper fireplace are not the type of people who would use AirBNB (or similar services) in the first place.

Re: DIY B&B

#122

Post by geebee » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 10:07 PM UTC

dmk23 wrote: post #12

This is a classic example of anti-competitive market fixing, masquerading as a "regulation to protect consumers" or somesuch. There is no legitimate justification to infringe on a contract between a willing buyer and a willing seller, but to actually fight these crackdowns you have to spend lots of $$$ on local political campaigns in every municipality. Easier said than done. Unless that massive lobbying investment (…

There is another factor - many people don't want to live in a neighborhood with a highly transient population. I posted a link to a nytimes article about this above... I think a lot of this comes down to whether you feel that changing the nature of a neighborhood (fewer long term residents) is a legitimate reason for a neighborhood to regulate short term rentals.

As you can probably tell from my phrasing, I do think it is. I wish I had a cite, but I do remember reading an article about the actual, monetary value of good long term relations with neighbors... there is an argument to be made that short term rentals are selling not just the unit but the neighborhood itself, and doing some harm to the neighborhood in the process. If that is the case, this is an externality that could be legitimately regulated.

Re: DIY B&B

#123

Post by hyperbovine » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 10:07 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #87

nostromo wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're forgetting that this problem is already solved by contract law. Tenants sign agreements not to rent out their units all the time. Home owner's associations often have rules against short-term rentals as well. If you don't like the idea of short-term rentals in your neighborhood or building, choose one protected by one of these types of contracts. In fact, they're so common, you probably already have such prote…

What's the contract law remedy for a tenant in a building whose unscrupulous landlord has decided to dump his spare inventory onto Airbnb as an ad hoc hostel? Break the lease? Sue for moving costs and to recover the security deposite? What if you're rent-controlled and the landlord says "go ahead, break the lease! woohoo!"? What's the contract law remedy for unscrupulous businesspeople who buy entire buildings and co…

> What's the contract law remedy for a tenant in a building whose unscrupulous landlord has decided to dump his spare inventory onto Airbnb as an ad hoc hostel?

Demand a no-hostel clause at signing. It's silly, but there's your answer.

And BTW, having lived in a truly rent-controlled (1/5th market rate) place before, "go ahead, break the lease! woohoo!" is all your landlord says anyways.

Re: DIY B&B

#124

Post by njs12345 » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 10:08 PM UTC

hell0_th3r3 wrote: post #86

gojomo wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All true, but the power of persistent online reputations can mitigate these negatives better than inflexible 20th-century-style regulations.

ever heard of astroturfing? after working on a listings site, i automatically assume 80% of ratings and reviews and astroturfed

It's hardly rocket science to tell whether a review is astroturfing or not..

Re: DIY B&B

#125

Post by gojomo » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 10:10 PM UTC

hell0_th3r3 wrote: post #86

gojomo wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All true, but the power of persistent online reputations can mitigate these negatives better than inflexible 20th-century-style regulations.

ever heard of astroturfing? after working on a listings site, i automatically assume 80% of ratings and reviews and astroturfed

It's different when every rating is gated by actual money-changing-hands-in-commerce, as with AirBNB, Uber, and similar.

Further, with the overlay of a giant social network, you can rent your spot out only to people with whom you share some indirect but useful level of acquaintance. So you can ask before renting: "Is Mr. X an inconsiderate ass?" And Mr. X knows bad behavior can affect their reputation moreso than just via a semi-anonymous blurb on a website.

Re: DIY B&B

#126

Post by rprasad » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 10:10 PM UTC

base698 wrote: post #99

rprasad wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guest stays free = okay. Guest pays you = not okay. The average person can understand that. In fact, most people do. The "benefits" of AirBNB are usually lost on the average person, who cannot understand why someone would rent out their house directly to total strangers.

In High Point, NC they have a bi-yearly furniture market that nearly everyone in town rents their house for two weeks. This has been going on for decades and gave most of the people who did it an extra few thousand a year. It's not as radical as it seems even in non vacation areas.

Vacation spots usually have permissive laws regarding vacation rentals to encourage property owners to rent out their properties during the times of the year they are not using their property. (For example, contrast the permissive rules of Dana Point and Myrtle Beach with the prospective rules of Pasadena and Boston.)

Different considerations apply in communities which are not vacation spots.

Re: DIY B&B

#127

Post by tptacek » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 10:12 PM UTC

Zak wrote: post #120

tptacek wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the contract law remedy for a tenant in a building whose unscrupulous landlord has decided to dump his spare inventory onto Airbnb as an ad hoc hostel? Break the lease? Sue for moving costs and to recover the security deposite? What if you're rent-controlled and the landlord says "go ahead, break the lease! woohoo!"? What's the contract law remedy for unscrupulous businesspeople who buy entire buildings and co…

What's the contract law remedy for a tenant in a building whose unscrupulous landlord has decided to dump his spare inventory onto Airbnb as an ad hoc hostel? One long-term solution that could emerge is for it to be common to have provisions in leases that forbid both tenants and landlords from doing such things. It might take a while for that to happen, but if what you describe becomes much of a problem, it's likely…

"Could emerge"? Have you ever read a residential lease? I've rented (counting real quick) 8 different places in 3 different cities and every single one of them gave the landlord control over sublessors. I could not have lawfully put any of those apartments on Airbnb.

This came up last Abnb thread, and a bunch of my fellow message board nerds insisted that it was a commonplace to have leases that didn't forbid Abnb, but I don't buy it. I think the right rule of thumb is "you can't do it without breaking the promise you made when you rented the apartment and exposing yourself not only to eviction but to civil liability".

Incidentally, the case law behind landlord oversight over sublessors is very solid; this issue is some substantial fraction of every tenant dispute ever, because people very commonly want to break their leases, and expect their landlord to accept the very first person the tenant finds to occupy the apartment.

Re: DIY B&B

#128

Post by marcojgm » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 10:13 PM UTC

I have rented out my place (which I own) numerous times. I pay my income taxes through the 1099 Airbnb issues. Since I've started renting, I've made numerous friends I keep in touch with, have had invitations to visit Turkey, Singapore... it has helped me pay my bills... and I've never had a disturbance, nor have my neighbors ever had a problem. I realize not all cases are like this, but Airbnb has truly made my life easier, made me a proud host and broadened my horizons. As a guest I have gotten under the skin of neighborhoods in a matter of days (one time I ate at 3 fancy restaurants in a weekend all of which had month long reservation lists because my host is embedded in the local community)

The beauty of Airbnb and other community marketplaces is that I'm incentivized to make sure things go well. If my neighbors complain, it will become hard to host. If my guests complain, it will become hard to host. If I complain at a hotel? No one cares.

I would happily pay a flat yearly tax to register as a short term rental host. I won't however spend 10s of hours working through ridiculous paperwork, spending thousands of $s to get onside of this antiquated system. We should be thankful of companies like Airbnb, like SideCar, Uber, TaskRabbit, Exec, pushing our outdated world forward.

Just my $.02

Re: DIY B&B

#129

Post by tptacek » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 10:14 PM UTC

hyperbovine wrote: post #123

tptacek wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the contract law remedy for a tenant in a building whose unscrupulous landlord has decided to dump his spare inventory onto Airbnb as an ad hoc hostel? Break the lease? Sue for moving costs and to recover the security deposite? What if you're rent-controlled and the landlord says "go ahead, break the lease! woohoo!"? What's the contract law remedy for unscrupulous businesspeople who buy entire buildings and co…

> What's the contract law remedy for a tenant in a building whose unscrupulous landlord has decided to dump his spare inventory onto Airbnb as an ad hoc hostel? Demand a no-hostel clause at signing. It's silly, but there's your answer. And BTW, having lived in a truly rent-controlled (1/5th market rate) place before, "go ahead, break the lease! woohoo!" is all your landlord says anyways.

And so your remedy, when your landlord, who has promised you an apartment for a year at a specified price, is to move apartments, and then spend 2 years chasing them in court?

Incidentally: I sued a landlord once a few years ago over a very simple issue (they unlawfully withheld my security deposit) and did not pull "2 years" out of my butt.

Re: DIY B&B

#130

Post by sureshv » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 10:15 PM UTC

anamax wrote: post #44

In some vacation places, such as Monterey, it's illegal to rent a house/apartment for less than a month without a hotel license. These laws predate AirBnB by decades.

Doesn't seem too difficult to get a 'free' license and pay the occupancy tax. I've stayed in various beach rentals along the California coast for 2 weeks at a time and have been charged occupancy tax.

http://www.co.monterey.ca.us/taxcollector/TOT.html