DIY B&B • Hacker News Board

Re: DIY B&B

#111

Post by kirillzubovsky » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 9:57 PM UTC

excuse-me wrote: post #103

tsieling wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does gender have to do with opinions about whether someone should be able to rent out a room in a building they own? Renters don't tend to look after properties. No, that's why it's called rent and they have property managers or landlords who have that responsibility. That said, I've been in my rented place for 12yrs and take good care of it, as do other tenants in our building. Myth busted. How would I feel if…

On the other hand it is quite heartening that New York has improved to the point that this is now the top of the priority list for the police. I remember New York when any murder of less than a dozen people wasn't worth bothering with.

Actually, this article reminded me of the "Gangs of New York", where cops and firemen were standing by a burning building, waiting for the occupants to leave, just so they could run in and take all the belongings.

Not saying this is the case, but not saying it isn't either.

Re: DIY B&B

#112

Post by tptacek » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 9:58 PM UTC

stephencanon wrote: post #105

rprasad wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you have children (or nieces/nephews), there is a 100% chance that you will feel differently about short-term rentals. Long-term rentals indicate tenants that are stable enough to at least afford the lease. They are subject to at least some vetting (including background checks) prior to moving in. Short term tenants can be anyone. No background checks are conducted.

There's a 100% chance that I won't. Strangers, even unvetted ones, almost never pose a danger to children. The vast majority of harm done to children is done by friends and family. Having more strangers around makes your kids safer, if anything.

This is why, when I need sitting for my middle-school aged kids, I drop them off in the middle of Union Station instead of bringing them to their grandparents.

Re: DIY B&B

#113

Post by geebee » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 9:59 PM UTC

I remember an article about this problem in the nytimes a while back... here's the link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/07/travel/escapes/07backlash....

There's a wide range of opinions on this topic, and a lot of it probably comes down to personality. I'm sympathetic to people who don't really want their neighborhood to become a revolving door of short term residents, even if those residents are respectful and quiet. Some people would happily give up the right to rent out their own property short term in exchange for a neighborhood with less turnover, where you get to meet, know, and become long term friends with the people around you.

Other people not only disagree, but are appalled, even angered, that anyone would presume to make this decision for someone else - if their tenants are quiet and respectful, what right does someone else have to regulate what they do with their own property?

This is the sort of issue that reminds me of an interesting branch of libertarianism that actually supports highly restrictive laws provided that these laws are kept very local and decentralized. For instance, religious communities would have the right to demand everyone wear certain clothes, as long as people can easily leave and they promise not to try to enforce their dress code on the next township over.

I see some value in that point of view here. I do think neighborhoods, on a very local level, should be allowed to enforce strict laws on vrbos and short term rentals. I wouldn't want to see these laws state-wide (or even city wide), but at the neighborhood level, I don't think I have any objection (and I would prefer to live in a neighborhood with these restrictions).

Re: DIY B&B

#114

Post by tgrass » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 9:59 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #28

sliverstorm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... telling me who I can or can not have over to stay. They aren't telling you who you can or can not have over, they are prohibiting you from having temporary guests that pay. Why? Well, an establishment that houses temporary guests traditionally has to answer to health & safety codes and regulations. Under-the-radar AirBnB rentals circumvent that system. You'd probably get similar kickback if you tried running an i…

I think you're on to something: An AirBnB for supper clubs.

It was tried. Not sure why he closed it. https://twitter.com/housefed/

Re: DIY B&B

#115

Post by sopooneo » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 9:59 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #74

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #11

Just about every year for as long as I can remember, my family has taken a summer vacation at a beach about 300 miles away. We always stay in a hotel. Over time, the beach has gotten tacky. Big billboards. Lots of nightlife. Amusement park rides. All kinds of things that reek of Las Vegas, but not so much a relaxing family vacation. So this year we decided to try something different. I got onto VRBO online and picked…

> people own their stuff and they're damn well liable to do what they want to with it. You own your car. You are not allowed to set up as a cab service without some kind of insurance and registration. You own your home; you own the kitchen. You could not set up as a restaurant without a bunch of paperwork. > Laws which were used to increase the quality of hotel stays back in 1890 have extremely little applicability t…

I would argue that your very sensible demands, for a sanitary kitchen and proper fire escape, can be seen to by market forces. Only rent AirBnB places whose reviews convince you they are appropriate. You can not be the only one who feels as you do. And with a new market like this, where people would not reasonably expect the automatic protection they ostensibly enjoy at traditional hotels, it is all the more plausible that they will select and review places sufficiently.

Re: DIY B&B

#116

Post by larrys » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 10:02 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #89

larrys wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Generally the more owner-occupiers, the better the building." Same from my experience on the east coast. I will assume that's universal. "Renters don't tend to look after properties, tend to be less mindful of behaviour that impacts the neighbours (parties, etc), etc." Once again true from my experience. And here we aren't even talking about longer term rentals. We are talking about days and the fact that you could…

And remember, in those mails, the idea being discussed was the risk to the apartment owner of having their stuff owned. But in many NYC buildings --- including the NYC ABNB rentals I've had --- access to the apartment includes access to the front gate and the front door; in other words, it creates additional access to the apartments of every renter in the building, whether or not they themselves have opted in to Airb…

"the apartment owner of having their stuff owned"

By the way there is also the chance of the renter having their things owned.

If I stay at a hotel there is at least some control over who can enter my room and presumably key card logs, as well as videos showing access (and a safe in the room). While this does not provide absolute security obviously, I feel more safe leaving my laptop in a hotel room then in someone's apartment where anyone (old friend or perhaps the super) could have a key and something could disappear.

Re: DIY B&B

#117

Post by sureshv » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 10:02 PM UTC

hell0_th3r3 wrote: post #104

sureshv wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still own the improvements (Home or other structures), if any on the land - hence homeowner...

yes, you own the improvements, but the point of stipulating you as a TENANT is to permit the county to make and enforce rules, since your improvement is ultimately on their land. not much to argue here, counties have been making and enforcing rules for centuries, there is no loophole to exploit this is why, for example, foreclosure evictions often involve the sheriff's office - the county is protecting their own prop…

'Tenant' is not mentioned anywhere in my deed but perhaps California limits what the government can claim about my property. Were I to own a home on land restricted by a lease then perhaps you would have a legitimate point. I pay property tax and parcel tax on property assigned to me by the deed; the deed assigns ownership to me not the state.

Re: DIY B&B

#118

Post by dreamdu5t » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 10:04 PM UTC

untog wrote: post #35

dmk23 wrote: post #12

This is a classic example of anti-competitive market fixing, masquerading as a "regulation to protect consumers" or somesuch. There is no legitimate justification to infringe on a contract between a willing buyer and a willing seller, but to actually fight these crackdowns you have to spend lots of $$$ on local political campaigns in every municipality. Easier said than done. Unless that massive lobbying investment (…

There is no legitimate justification to infringe on a contract between a willing buyer and a willing seller Devils advocate: are food standards also a terrible imposition? The government insists on coming around to all the restaurants in the city and inspecting them to make sure that no-one will be poisoned or killed by the food they eat. How dare they stand in between a willing buyer and seller. Right? Right? Food s…

It has little to do with the reasons for regulating food, and everything to do with the means. In order to keep me from buying soda, you have to forcibly come between the peaceful and free association of me and another person.

You're not going to convince me that I would still buy raw milk, or that pasteurized milk would be unavailable, in the absence of FDA regulation.

Re: DIY B&B

#119

Post by tptacek » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 10:04 PM UTC

larrys wrote: post #116

tptacek wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And remember, in those mails, the idea being discussed was the risk to the apartment owner of having their stuff owned. But in many NYC buildings --- including the NYC ABNB rentals I've had --- access to the apartment includes access to the front gate and the front door; in other words, it creates additional access to the apartments of every renter in the building, whether or not they themselves have opted in to Airb…

"the apartment owner of having their stuff owned" By the way there is also the chance of the renter having their things owned. If I stay at a hotel there is at least some control over who can enter my room and presumably key card logs, as well as videos showing access (and a safe in the room). While this does not provide absolute security obviously, I feel more safe leaving my laptop in a hotel room then in someone's…

I feel like I've been pretty careful about selecting places to rent on Abnb, and this is the one practical concern I really do have.

Re: DIY B&B

#120

Post by Zak » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 10:06 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #87

nostromo wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're forgetting that this problem is already solved by contract law. Tenants sign agreements not to rent out their units all the time. Home owner's associations often have rules against short-term rentals as well. If you don't like the idea of short-term rentals in your neighborhood or building, choose one protected by one of these types of contracts. In fact, they're so common, you probably already have such prote…

What's the contract law remedy for a tenant in a building whose unscrupulous landlord has decided to dump his spare inventory onto Airbnb as an ad hoc hostel? Break the lease? Sue for moving costs and to recover the security deposite? What if you're rent-controlled and the landlord says "go ahead, break the lease! woohoo!"? What's the contract law remedy for unscrupulous businesspeople who buy entire buildings and co…

What's the contract law remedy for a tenant in a building whose unscrupulous landlord has decided to dump his spare inventory onto Airbnb as an ad hoc hostel?

One long-term solution that could emerge is for it to be common to have provisions in leases that forbid both tenants and landlords from doing such things. It might take a while for that to happen, but if what you describe becomes much of a problem, it's likely to happen.

What if you're rent-controlled and the landlord says "go ahead, break the lease! woohoo!"?

Then your bargaining power is reduced in exchange for your below-market rent. Sounds fair to me.

What's the contract law remedy for unscrupulous businesspeople who buy entire buildings and convert them into Airbnb hostels?

That's a slightly different issue. I don't think this is necessarily unscrupulous to do this, but there's certainly a potential for externalities.