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How WhatsApp became an unstoppable global cultural force

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Re: How WhatsApp became an unstoppable global cultural force

#111

Post by viraptor »

Jtsummers wrote: post #96
viraptor wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a weird claim getting repeated. If they were infringing, opening the protocol wouldn't change that fact. They didn't even have to provide the client for other platforms, so their unit count wouldn't be increased for damages.

Jobs' statement at the time was the intent to make it a published standard. If that standard was patent encumbered (or could be claimed to be, as the suit did) then it would be pretty hard to convince other people to implement that standard, and difficult to get a standards body to actually publish it. Why would Google, MS, or anyone else implement something if it'd get them bogged down in the same lawsuits Apple was…

There's lots of standards covered by patents. Gif included https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIF

Re: How WhatsApp became an unstoppable global cultural force

#112

Post by viraptor »

toast0 wrote: post #98
viraptor wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a weird claim getting repeated. If they were infringing, opening the protocol wouldn't change that fact. They didn't even have to provide the client for other platforms, so their unit count wouldn't be increased for damages.

As a matter of policy, I avoid looking into details of patents, but from the title, I thought the patent was about something the server does, routing or something? In which case, infringement or licensing would scale with the number of users, not the number of shipped clients. This was around the same time that Apple was charging for OS upgrades, at least on Mac, and I think they wouldn't have wanted to pay for somet…

Making the protocol a standard doesn't mean they have to accept every client. They already restrict that.

Re: How WhatsApp became an unstoppable global cultural force

#113

Post by Stagnant »

I see many people in this thread thinking that WhatsApp took off because of SMS costs, and while that may be true in some countries, at least here in Finland I think the biggest factor were group chats. By 2013-2014 basically every high school and college class had their own whatsapp group chat since it made sharing of videos/photos and keeping in touch with everyone so much easier. By 2017 i'd say the vast majority of smartphone users under 60 years old were using whatsapp and nowadays even my almost 90-year old grandma uses it primarily for video calls and to receive photos/videos.

This got me wondering if people in US do not typically have such group chats or whats the alternative?

Re: How WhatsApp became an unstoppable global cultural force

#114

Post by ignoramous »

While WhatsApp started as a way to set status ("Can't talk, text only", "Urgent calls only", "At school", "Busy"), the eventual razor-sharp focus by Jan Koum & Brian Acton to replace SMS (not MSN/Y! Messenger, not BBM, not IRC), in my eyes, made it the juggernaut that it became, inspite of the many regional/global clones.

- No logins. No sign-ups. Mobile phone number was the username; SIM card, the password.

- No central database of messages. No backup & restore. No stickers. No web-based access. Only fast text-based relays. For phones.

- Aggressive cross platform focus. Including clients for Blackberry & Symbian, not just mainstream OSes.

- Little to no perceptible downtime. Worked just fine in all sorts of flaky networks. Consistently and reliably.

- No ads, no spam.

- As cheap or cheaper than SMS (£1/yr), but works & roams globally.

- Voice notes and media to expand beyond the Anglosphere.

Another tidbit I find interesting: Jan used the fact that every time an app's title / description was changed, it would show up at the top in the "new" category of the iOS App Store, to help reach a wider install base.

In short, being laid off from Yahoo! to being rejected by Facebook, brought the best out of Jan & Brian. They ran a very unconventional SV startup and got a lot of the details exactly and deliberately right. Not many stood a chance, as evidenced by their eventual £22bn exit.

Re: How WhatsApp became an unstoppable global cultural force

#115

Post by Jtsummers »

viraptor wrote: post #111
Jtsummers wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs' statement at the time was the intent to make it a published standard. If that standard was patent encumbered (or could be claimed to be, as the suit did) then it would be pretty hard to convince other people to implement that standard, and difficult to get a standards body to actually publish it. Why would Google, MS, or anyone else implement something if it'd get them bogged down in the same lawsuits Apple was…

There's lots of standards covered by patents. Gif included https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIF

Yes, which is a great example of a patent encumbered standard creating problems for people implementing the standard.

Considering FaceTime postdates the GIF experience, I'm sure plenty of corporate lawyers understood the problem much better.

Re: How WhatsApp became an unstoppable global cultural force

#116

Post by toast0 »

viraptor wrote: post #112
toast0 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a matter of policy, I avoid looking into details of patents, but from the title, I thought the patent was about something the server does, routing or something? In which case, infringement or licensing would scale with the number of users, not the number of shipped clients. This was around the same time that Apple was charging for OS upgrades, at least on Mac, and I think they wouldn't have wanted to pay for somet…

Making the protocol a standard doesn't mean they have to accept every client. They already restrict that.

Making it an open standard and then not accepting any clients but their own is an option I didn't even consider.

Not sure it would help them build their network, but I guess it's an option.

Re: How WhatsApp became an unstoppable global cultural force

#117

Post by danpalmer »

elAhmo wrote: post #76

I feel like I am missing something. It is a chat app, one of many, with some features like communities (which feel like extremely large groups) and status updates (which almost every other app does).

The thing you’re missing is network effects.

I use WhatsApp because all my family and friends are on it. We’re all on it because it’s the dominant chat network in the UK.

It might seem like SMS must be an option because everyone has it, because if you have WA then you’ve got a number and can receive SMS, but that’s not how people view it. SMS is an app like every other (to most people), but it’s an app that doesn’t have their other chats in (only 2FA codes and spam), and one that mostly doesn’t sync to their other devices as well.

Re: How WhatsApp became an unstoppable global cultural force

#118

Post by erikpukinskis »

Stagnant wrote: post #113

I see many people in this thread thinking that WhatsApp took off because of SMS costs, and while that may be true in some countries, at least here in Finland I think the biggest factor were group chats. By 2013-2014 basically every high school and college class had their own whatsapp group chat since it made sharing of videos/photos and keeping in touch with everyone so much easier. By 2017 i'd say the vast majority…

I live in California. For me, group chats are predominantly iMessage. FaceTime for video chat. I only know a handful of people with Android phones and they just suffer with poor quality media.

I suspect it’s both regionally and class dependent however.

Re: How WhatsApp became an unstoppable global cultural force

#119

Post by dcsommer »

toast0 wrote: post #110
dcsommer wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely not true and would immediately trigger lawsuits across the globe. WhatsApp and Meta data separation is extremely strict. Source: I work at WhatsApp and also https://faq.whatsapp.com/1303762270462331 > We need your contacts to provide the service, but don’t share your contacts with Meta.

I would be very careful about making such statements. It is absolutely true that WhatsApp collects your contacts' phone numbers and your social graph. Unless WhatsApp has stopped doing that, in which case it should make a big announcement. I don't know if the social graph is used outside WhatsApp, so that part may not be true, but it is within the privacy policy to do so (at least the one I see, EU may have a differe…

This is not me making some grand new commitment. It's right in the privacy policy and also summarized here: https://faq.whatsapp.com/1303762270462331

> We need your contacts to provide the service, but don’t share your contacts with Meta.

I'm frustrated that people even at HN allow themselves to indulge in conspiracy theories that would be immediately whistle-blowed or reported on. There are thousands of people that work on or with WhatsApp and related products within Meta who would notice, not to mention all the data separation audits that happen.

Re: How WhatsApp became an unstoppable global cultural force

#120

Post by gardenhedge »

beAbU wrote: post #108
ks2048 wrote: post #92

I'm in a place where WhatsApp is everywhere - "call/text me" is basically assumed to mean call or send me a message on WhatsApp. But, somehow I don't view it as a "cultural force" the way other social media sites are. I guess because it's just people talking/chatting/sending-pics with their contacts, so there's no algorithm driving/changing peoples' behavior. It's like the cultural force of everyone having cell phone…

WhatsApp is basically a conduit or utility at this point. It's a more usable layer on top of raw TCP/IP. Its completely unlike any of the social media services, even telegram. I agree, there is nothing cultural about it. I think its because there are no "discovery" features. You cant search for groups or people or whatever. You need to know someone well enough that they have your mobile number, in order to invite you…

There are stories like on FB and Instagram. Also, you don't need to know all the people you communicate with - there's often groups for clubs, schools, events, etc.
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