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Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

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Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#351

Post by School-Cotton »

scott_w wrote: post #238
tomatovole wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a metric I can look at in engine evaluations to determine when a situation is "risky" for white or black (e.g., the situation above) even if it looks equal with perfect play? I've always been interested in understanding situations where this is the case (and the opposite, where the engine favours one side but it seems to require a long, hard-to-find sequence of moves. Playing out the top lines helps if equal…

Not really because it’s subjective to the level of player. What’s a blunder to a master player might only be an inaccuracy to a beginner. The same applies for higher levels of chess player. I’ve watched GothamChess say “I’ve no idea why made this move but it’s the only move,” then Hikaru Nakamura will rattle off a weird 8-move sequence to explain why it’s a major advantage despite no pieces being lost. Stockfish is a…

> Stockfish is a level above even Magnus if given enough depth.

"a level" and "if given enough depth" are both underselling it. Stockfish running on a cheap phone with equal time for each side will beat Magnus 100 games in a row.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#352

Post by stouset »

veidelis wrote: post #165

First of all, I have the greatest respect for the two individuals who played their hearts out in this event. Personally, I'm on the side which thinks that this format is a total stagnation. Maybe the new no-increment under 40 moves is an improvement, but overall it does not count. I agree with Carlsen that the format has to be drastically changed to determine who is the better player. Much more games, shorter games.…

> Personally, I'm on the side which thinks that this format is a total stagnation.

I was with you until this WCC.

In almost every game, Gukesh took Ding out of prep extremely early. It wasn't always a success for him either! Leaving the opening book typically means you accept an objectively-worse position, but one that your opponent has to spend a significant amount of time finding the right ideas in. Even in the cases where Ding found the right idea, Gukesh put him in serous time-trouble as a result.

Yes, many of the games resulted in draws. But they were extremely sharp and imbalanced, and in virtually every game one side of the board (typically Gukesh) had a serious advantage and very strong attacking opportunities. The resulting draws were due to not finding the right ideas in time (and very likely both players psyching themselves out of the "obvious" correct move) rather than inherently boring and drawn positions.

Overall it seemed to be an extremely effective strategy for Gukesh. But it was also actually exciting to watch unlike some previous WCCs where almost every game was likely in prep through the first 20+ moves and where the resulting positions had ample drawing chances for both sides.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#353

Post by School-Cotton »

ANewFormation wrote: post #168
neaden wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to put it in numbers since high level chess players start very young, it's basically considered impossible to become a titled player learning chess as an adult, with a slight exception for high level players from similar games transferring over. So becoming the youngest champ and becoming the champ in the shortest time are very similar. For comparison Magnus started playing chess at 5 and became WC at 22.

It's 100% possible to become a master starting as an adult, but it requires a certain sort of person - you're looking at thousands upon thousands of hours of difficult work paired alongside endless frustrations, obstacles, seriously low emotional lows the game can cause (think about how Ding feels right now, even if it wasn't a game for the title), and more. The idea of becoming a master, especially as an adult, is f…

> It's 100% possible to become a master starting as an adult

Do you have any examples of someone who has done it?

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#354

Post by monooso »

paulsutter wrote: post #141
seanhunter wrote: post #31

That was a absolutely horrible finish to a really exciting championship if you ask me. For anyone who doesn't know, there was a lot of drama because Gukesh was playing amazingly coming into this (eg winning the gold medal on board 1 at the olympiad in crushing style) and Ding had been playing terribly. Then there were 13 games of back and forth with stalwart defending and imaginative computer preparation by both side…

Chess really baffles me Most of the more sophisticated people I know are completely disinterested in sports. Not that they dislike sports, it just never occupies their mind. Sports is a purposeless activity for kids Chess is different from sports in only one way: the loss of very intelligent capable people who could be helping to create the future. Chess is even more tragic than the olympics.

There's no reason to imagine that a talent for chess equates with a talent for "creating the future."

It's also worth noting that very few people make a living from playing chess, so they're probably still available for your future plans.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#355

Post by monooso »

boringg wrote: post #218
willy_k wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one said very young. Youngest is a comparison, and having 6 years on the previous youngest is massively impressive.

Is it though? You can play so many more games now with computational aid and speed up your learning rates. I'm impressed but this isn't the same as coming from another era -- this feels like technology pushing the learning rate for younger people.

Gukesh rarely plays online (he prefers OTB), and only began using computers for opening prep four years ago.

Does that make his achievement suitably impressive for you?

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#356

Post by monooso »

stormfather wrote: post #272
veidelis wrote: post #165

First of all, I have the greatest respect for the two individuals who played their hearts out in this event. Personally, I'm on the side which thinks that this format is a total stagnation. Maybe the new no-increment under 40 moves is an improvement, but overall it does not count. I agree with Carlsen that the format has to be drastically changed to determine who is the better player. Much more games, shorter games.…

Absolutely. It would be AMAZING if no prep was possible. Memorizing engine lines 20 deep is nothing to be proud of.

That's the appeal of Chess960 / Fischer Random / Freestyle Chess / whatever they're calling it this week.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#357

Post by kelipso »

stormfather wrote: post #332
kelipso wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s his excuse anyway. If you can’t hold on to the title, no matter the actual or stated reasons, then you are simply not the World Champion.

Excuse? You must not follow chess too closely. He is the undisputed GOAT. He is clearly bored - he plays atrocious opening moves these days just to get an interesting game. He's so good he transcended the need to keep proving it. Excuse. Lmao. Gukesh is the WC only because he is not good enough to present an interesting challenge.

That's just what he says. He is obviously not going to publicly say that he is scared of competing in the WCC. But in all likelihood, he is. At least Ding could compete in the WCC without 6 months prep, which Magnus clearly cannot.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#358

Post by kelipso »

monooso wrote: post #350
kelipso wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s his excuse anyway. If you can’t hold on to the title, no matter the actual or stated reasons, then you are simply not the World Champion.

Magnus Carlsen is the highest rated classical player, and has been since 2011. It's also worth noting that is he is the reigning Rapid World Champion, the reigning Blitz World Champion, and the reigning Chess World Cup Champion. He chose not to defend his Classical world title, and has been quite clear about the reasons.

There are stated reasons and there are actual reasons. You have to differentiate between the two, otherwise you are just extremely naive.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#359

Post by throw310822 »

WJW wrote: post #312
dorgo wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take the computer which beats Magnus and restrain it to never make the best move in a position. Expand this to N best moves as needed to reach 1300 rating.

Even 1300s sometimes make the best move. Sometimes the best move is really easy to see or even mandatory, like if you are in check and MUST take that checking piece. Sometimes the best move is only obvious if you can look 20 moves ahead. Sometimes the best move is only obvious if you can look 5 moves ahead, but the line is so forcing that even 1300s can look that far ahead. Despite decades of research, nobody has fou…

Then I can't refrain from asking: and what's the style of LLMs? For example the ChatGPT which is apparently rated around 1800? That should be completely different from that of a classic chess engine.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#360

Post by sheepscreek »

School-Cotton wrote: post #298
SpaceManNabs wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really interesting because i ran into a pokemon bot the other day were its training led to calibration of 50% winrste at all levels of play on Pokémon showdown. It was a complete accident.

It's not hard to make a chess bot that plays at a 1300 strength, i.e. its rating would converge to 1300 if it were allowed to compete. But it will not play like a 1300-rated human. It would play like a superhuman genius on most moves and then make beginner-level blunders at random moments. Making one that realistically plays like a human is an unsolved problem.

I think this can be achieved with some ease with a machine learning model. You will have to train it on games between 1300-rated players and below. A transformer model might work even better in terms of the evenness of play (behaving like a 1300 rated player throughout the game).
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