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Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

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Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#301

Post by mlyle »

systemvoltage wrote: post #166
ANewFormation wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really misses the key drama of what happened in the last game. Ding had a perfectly safe position where he could try to squeeze Gukesh pretty much endlessly with basically 0 risk. He then, completely inexplicably, went down a forced line which led to the final phase of the game. In this phase the position was drawn with perfect play, but that is completely irrelevant because it is really tough to play. And more…

Chess engines should come with another metric bar: "The twitchy-ness" of the position aka the gradient of primary eval metric as you pareto the possible moves from best to worst. The stronger this gradient, the more risky it is to play, and more changes to make a mistake.

Except a lot of the time there's an obvious threat that needs to be responded to, and a couple of obvious good responses that even terrible players spot.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#302

Post by MrMcCall »

ANewFormation wrote: post #178
awongh wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5-22- so 17 years instead of 11. Quite a difference! Can any of that be put down to advances in training tech that wasn't around when Magnus started playing?

In spite of claims to the contrary there is luck in chess. Your form (and your opponents') varies significantly over time, the outcome of competitive opening prep, or even just how well you're sleeping. The stars really aligned for Gukesh in countless ways, his form and openings hit when and where they needed to, and he was left playing a very out-of-form world champ who wasn't even in the top 20 in the world. I susp…

Yes, the luck can be being able to sleep well during this grueling event, or having food that agrees with you, or even which virii are circulating around and whether or not they get you.

As to Gukesh's faith, it brings inner peace and happiness, and if you observe the contestants' faces, the difference was evident. Gukesh isn't making a show of being prayerful, he's really doing it. It means he is doing what he is doing for a greater goal, which is always for a worldwide peace and happiness for all human beings, when really performed in harmony with our Creator. If one's religion's purpose is for dominance over others one can never gain inner peace and happiness from it. It must be for personal harmonization with peace and happiness for all human beings, or it is just more mammalian self-righteous warfare.

That's why Rumi says, "You have no idea how little we care for what people say." What he means by this is that a lot of people talk about religion, but what we do and how we feel as a result of our religiosity is the only proof that is accepted by God. Most people do not understand that such proof is evident on people's faces and in the tone of their voice, but you seem to have noticed the reality that Gukesh has it and, sadly, Ding does not.

Gukesh's victory is a way of demonstrating to folks that there are real gains to be had from seeking the peace and happiness of religion for peace and happiness's sake. No religion is superior to others in this respect. No. There are only true seekers and those who merely seek to justify their oppression of others by their religious affiliation.

I extensively explain how this works in my comments over the past week or two.

"The Way goes in." --Rumi

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#303

Post by MrMcCall »

vlovich123 wrote: post #167
rossdavidh wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...although that means you can't wear your opponent down. The computer will always still be there, not doing what you want, no matter how long you draw things out, it will never screw up and start working because it's tired. But I agree that programming is (usually) easier than chess, certainly at these levels.

When you’re programming it’s an open book exam where the opponent is reality. You have all sorts of resources available to you and even the computer itself can help you find problems in your solution and you generally have as much time as you need. Chess is a closed book exam where your opponent is another human and you have a fixed amount of time to answer questions and managing that is as as important as asking and…

> you generally have as much time as you need

That's hilarious. I wish you had been my manager :-)

It reminds me of that quote by the author of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, about the wooshing sound deadlines make as they fly by him, or somesuch.

Nicely said, friend.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#304

Post by amohn9 »

hilux wrote: post #249
RUnconcerned wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's not quite the point. Leela has an advantage over AB chess engines, where it has multi-PV for "free", meaning it will evaluate multiple lines by default at no cost to performance (traditional engines, like Stockfish, will lose elo with multi-PV). This allows us to know at a glance if a position is "draw/win with perfect play" or if there is margin for error. If Leela shows multiple moves where one side…

Yes and no – the number of playable lines does not necessarily tell us how "obvious" those lines are to find for a human. To give a trivial example, if I take your queen, then recapturing my queen is almost always the single playable move. But it's also a line that you will easily find! Conversely, in a complex tactical position, (even) multiple saving moves could all be very tricky for a human to calculate.

I wonder if there’s a combined metric that could be calculated. Depth of the line certainly would be impactful. A line that only works if you do 5 only moves is harder to find than a single move line. “Quiet” moves are probably harder to find than captures or direct attacks. Backwards moves are famously tricky to spot. Etc

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#306

Post by griomnib »

smus wrote: post #144
zanellato19 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HAHAHA Only an HN comment could call the youngest person ever to do something would be said to "not that big of an accomplishment". How would you change that headline?

Not nearly as big of an accomplishment as that guy reducing latency by 3.7% on the legacy microservice at work

Hey now, that microservice happens to violate data protection law in 40 jurisdictions per second, that’s basically a criminal mastermind.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#308

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl »

jeremyjh wrote: post #276
ANewFormation wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really misses the key drama of what happened in the last game. Ding had a perfectly safe position where he could try to squeeze Gukesh pretty much endlessly with basically 0 risk. He then, completely inexplicably, went down a forced line which led to the final phase of the game. In this phase the position was drawn with perfect play, but that is completely irrelevant because it is really tough to play. And more…

Yes and I think losing in this way is the most fair result. Ding has gone for a draw in every game where the score was tied, even with white (the first game, which he won as black was just a gift from Gukesh). Today, once again with white he could have pressed the position and played for more. Instead he sacrificed a pawn to play for a draw, and had the more difficult game to play even if it was always 0s. If he'd tr…

I think this is an unfair characterisation of how Ding played. The issue wasn't lack of ambition, but lack of confidence leading to misevaluation. Judging from the long thinks and how he's played in recent years, it's clear he doesn't fully trust his calculation. But I think he deserves credit for his ambition, actually. If he really wanted to play for draws he wouldn't be playing the French or the English. He'd be aiming for e4 e5 with an early queen trade. He mostly chose interesting openings with a lot of fight in them, often got an advantage, and simply misplayed by underestimating his position. Classic sign of a player with confidence issues.

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#309

Post by endorphine »

ceronman wrote: post #9
selectnull wrote: post #2

It was painful watching Ding Liren blunder the rook and realize what he had done.

It was. But he had 9 minutes vs more than an hour for Gukesh. The entire match has been Ding defending miraculously, I thought it was a matter of time before he eventually failed. The fact that it happened on the last moves of the last game, it's definitely hard for Ding, but fair for Gukesh IMO.

I don't get the "fair" argument. Would it be unfair if Ding did not blunder the rook? How so?

Re: Gukesh becomes the youngest chess world champion in history

#310

Post by oconnor663 »

dorgo wrote: post #253
qq66 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making a computer play like a 1300-rated human is harder than making a computer beat Magnus Carlsen.

Take the computer which beats Magnus and restrain it to never make the best move in a position. Expand this to N best moves as needed to reach 1300 rating.

I assume you could just give the computer a large set of 1300 rated games and train it to predict moves from that set :)
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