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Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

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Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#52
post #30

My grandma always told me when she couldn’t go on her walks anymore she didn’t consider life worth living. When she got dementia she was placed in a closed hospice, to “protect her”. Now she only walks when I visit, and I only see a shell of the woman she was. Anecdotal of course, but why do people think it’s an ethics question when society is individualistic as can be? There is no choice in being born, why don’t we…

Yeah, I knew someone who opted to have their dementia-suffering parent live with them until the end. That was tough, but... surely better than being left alone in a hospice/etc. as you mention. Unfortunately, yeah, you'll see the person just erode and ... it's really brutal as hell, ultra sad. Eventually the person is not even capable of consenting to euthanasia (nor any other medical procedure). Definitely something…

I have worked in hospice and would say typically the people who end up there are not what I would say left alone. But they are there to die. They usually end up there because the family who was looking after them is really struggling to do so any longer for various reasons like personal care or medication management being too much and they are approaching death.

When there they get basically as much drugs to fight pain, anxiety and other symptoms as much as they need. The goal is to provide as much as possible a comfortable end to their life.

Dementia patients are not candidates for MAID program here in Canada. You need to be of sound mind at this time. Perhaps in the future one can make a living will for future illness but currently if you are confused or suffering from dementia and can not understand what it is all about you can not consent to it.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#53
post #13

Fifteen years ago, flying into Vancouver, a local told me charities would give homeless people one-way bus tickets there from colder regions of Canada to prevent winter deaths. No return tickets in spring. Calls into question what we consider "charitable" when the solution is just moving vulnerable people elsewhere. Worrying parallel: will euthanasia become another "solution" for those who can't afford proper care an…

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That's a normal fact of life.

The underlying cause is that there is an almost infinite demand for medical costs - well beyond the economic capacity of any country.

Unfortunately facts are difficult, and politicians can't fix the facts regardless of how much they tax everybody.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#55
I'm Dutch. Euthanasia has been legal for a few decades here. And was common practice before it got legalized. In exactly the same way as it is elsewhere. It's basically doctors putting their fingers on the scale using all sorts of euphemisms to bring relief in the final stages of death.

A little extra morphine puts people in coma. Once they are in a coma. They stop eating. You fiddle with their water access and they "pass away peacefully" hours/days later. This has been common practice for as long as there are doctors. Palliative care is a form of euthanasia that is referred to as passive euthanasia. But it's usually pretty active. If you stop giving people treatment they die. If you give people treatment that puts them in or near a coma and then you stop giving them treatment, they die. Providing food and water is a form of treatment. There's a nice grey area here. A little extra morphine puts people in a coma. And then you just unplug the drip feed with nutrients and water.

My grand mother (terminal brain cancer) was helped along a exactly like this forty years ago before active euthanasia (giving people a drug cocktail that first knocks them out and then stops their heart) became legal. My grand father was fiercely catholic so he never really knew what was happening but my mother, aunt, and uncles of course were of course aware and simply said enough is enough. I'm pretty sure my grand mother was lucid enough that she asked for this. Given this was still illegal at the time, it wasn't discussed a lot with us.

In any case, Patients and families asking for that extra bit of morphine to be administered is about as old as morphine is. And there were other ways before that. You probably know people that died this way.

I have a relative who is a GP and deals with euthanasia requests once in a while. Not her favorite thing to do, to put it mildly. It's a thing that is surrounded with a lot of protocol and has to be done by the book. Doctors can reject doing this for whatever reason, including moral/religious ones. This is not a right but a privilege. And if they go ahead, they have to get the opinion of another doctor. The whole thing is documented, double and triple checked, etc. In short, there is zero room for error/misunderstanding here and there has to be a confirmed diagnose of suffering that cannot be relieved and a confirmed wish for this. Any violations of protocol are taken extremely seriously.

My parents have many friends/relatives/etc. that have requested and received euthanasia. One fairly recent case involved a friend of theirs with early Alzheimer that just didn't want to stick around for the inevitable end. You have to still be able to decide on this for this to be legal. And Alzheimer's of course results in people not being able to think for themselves. A lot of people wait too long by which time they are no longer legally able to decide anything for themselves. Including whether they want Euthanasia. Anyway, this person was still able to decide and pretty vocal about what they wanted. There was a little farewell party and everything. And the funeral was a week later. Cases like this of course are controversial, especially with doctors. But then, undeniably we're talking about individuals who ask for this knowing full well what they are asking for.

A while ago a former prime minister and his wife were euthanized together. They were both in their nineties with all sorts of terminal medical issues. He represented a Christian conservative party when he was in office. Euthanasia is completely normal and uncontroversial at this point. Even so, this case caused a bit of debate. But everybody in the Netherlands has relatives, friends, etc. that died through euthanasia. I've never talked to anyone that still looks at this as murder, immoral, etc. My parents have both notarized letters ready to be invoked if it ever comes up. It's been decades since there was any kind of serious political debate about rolling this back. Just no chance in hell to get anything resembling even close to a majority for this.

The only people that are against this are against this for religious reasons. And, as far as I'm concerned, that's fine in so far that concerns their own life. But I just don't acknowledge their right to impose decisions about other people's lives. Especially not mine. This is a widely shared sentiment in the Netherlands. People like being in control.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#56

In a system of socialized medicine, is the goal of society to spend the money available to save the most people? Taking into account that people have the greatest medical costs near the end of their life, should the system save others by limiting either the total available spend or the cost of any particular treatment according to some metric? Should the system repeatedly and frequently remind people that are older a…

Isn't this overcomplicating it? Euthanasia doesn't require advertising, it seems like people yearn for it even in places where it isn't allowed. The point is that it should be a legitimate choice, not a suggestion by society. Just like your doctor doesn't tell you that it's probably time for you to become a parent, no doctor should recommend you to be gone.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#57
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fairly common for governments to provide a basic level of care for free or heavily subsidized, but not cover more expensive treatments. It's certainly not exclusive to the US.

At least in Europe and the Nordic systems I have experience with, that typically applies to the very expensive novel treatments. There are gene therapies which can cost $2-3 million per patient and those aren't covered by any public healthcare system, AFAIK. But it's not like there is some kind of upper limit on coverage. If you have cancer, you will get treatment regardless of how much your care has already cost.

In most of the places I've been in SE Asia and South America, there are separate government hospitals that are the only affordable option for the poor. If you have cancer, they're not going to do much for you.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#58

In an ideal world 100% of all deaths would be by euthanasia. Instead there are accidents, which kill prematurely. Homicides, which steal life. And diseases, which cripple and degrade. I've watched three of my four grandparents suffocate to death as their organs failed, blasted out of their minds on morphine, nothing more than a collection of organs with a slowly stopping metabolism. Two of them wanted to end it, but…

I'd probably prefer to not know, and die in my sleep - surely preferred over the dread of knowing the moment, even if it would be painless/easy. Not sure, my opinion might be different if I'm old and suffering!

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Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#59

During the recent debate around the Assisted Dying Bill in the UK, I listened to a radio phone-in in which a palliative care doctor explained that it wasn't possible to relieve all suffering for all patients. They relayed an example of a person who had spent their last days vomiting fully-formed faeces. If we can prevent five, ten or perhaps twenty percent of people having gruesome deaths, then not doing so feels lik…

"They relayed an example of a person who had spent their last days vomiting fully-formed faeces."

Sounds like a fully-formed exaggeration. Vomiting once or twice a day is not spending your last days vomiting. More frequent vomiting? The supply could not possibly meet the demand. Especially if the patient stopped eating.

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