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Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

singlevoice.net

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Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#51
With any large gathering of people you are certain to find a number of outliers with disrespectful social impositions (being racist, sexism or anti-techism.) Defcon is no exception, so it is a grave presumption to place the blame an event itself for the disrespectful actions of a handful of attendees (unless there is a track of "how to seduce women by licking tattoos" at the event.) Furthermore, the fact it is Defcon is held in Las Vegas which only fuels any such flames of inappropriate behaviour with litres of alcohol and tourists who may just be at the casino bar per-chance.

This said, I am for these cards. Sometimes people simply need to be told in a direct matter to knock it off. However, please do not cast blame on an entire event for the misguided actions of a few people.

I hope this individual has an enjoyable time this year, at the least it appears they plan on returning so whatever misdoings of last year were not enough to dissuade a return visit (even if they plan to now be armed with Defcon funded "creeper cards" it should make the whole experience fare more interesting or enlightening for all involved.)

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#52

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange…

So... a behaviour like "Like the man who tried to get me to show him my tits so he could punch a hole in a card that, when filled, would net him a favor from one of the official security staff" - expecting that to actually work. Expecting women to think that was okay. That's not "stereotyping" or "Prejudice"?

Expecting women to be okay with "Like the man who drunkenly tried to lick my shoulder tattoo. Like the man who grabbed my hips while I was waiting for a drink at the EFF party" is not discrimination?

Long story short, if you step into a bar full of males who normally have few opportunities to make contact with women in a social context...yes, you are stepping into the lion's den. Males are sexual, but not necessarily "sexist" -- don't confuse the two.

Humans are sexual. Men and women. Wanting to have sex does not automatically mean you have to be an asshat. Being an introvert and wanting to have sex doesn't mean you have to be an asshat. I managed to do it when I was young. My friends did to. Treating other human beings with respect shouldn't be a hard thing for people to learn.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#53

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange…

Prejudice , as in, a default judgment/assessment weighing against an individual? I submit that the idea that it's permitted to treat this person less respectfully because they are a woman is such a judgment, and it is on the basis of sex. Stereotyping , as in a belief... about specific types of individuals or certain ways of doing things, but that belief may or may not accurately reflect reality . Again, I submit tha…

>the notion that any and all women are available and open to sexual advances

Advances, in and of themselves, are fine. All people are subject to them, and simple rejection should suffice to show a lack of openness. The line is crossed when those advances are disrespectful and/or inappropriate.

If you put 950 men and 50 women together, those women will get hit on, and there's nothing wrong with that. The wrongness comes from treating the women as objects or somehow not as deserving of respect as their male counterparts. We wouldn't be hearing about this if the advances were restricted to, "would you like to grab a drink later?".

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#54

Prediction: The sexism in IT problem will never end. Here's my hypothesis: 1. Women and men are different. We see this played out all around us, all the time, both sides happily make and laugh at jokes about it, and no one has a problem acknowledging this fact during discussion of other topics, but when certain subjects are being discussed, these very same people will assure you, with total sincerity, that there is n…

1. Men and women being different does not make sexism ok. Flippant comments like that are unhelpful (at best) and downright malicious (at worst).

2. Exceptionalism ('it is distinctly different from other "professional" fields') is a "code smell" that you're way off base. Civil engineering, for example, is a male dominated profession that has made huge strides in both standards, ethical behaviour, inclusiveness and direct action toward encourage more females considering it as a career from a young age. Women simply don't get treated nearly as poorly at a (for example) roading engineering conference than an IT security conference.

> "...that people continuously seem to be amaaaaaazed that this stuff still happens is getting a bit ridiculous."

Whereas you just roll your eyes and tell people to Lighten Up? The only way it will change is if you start treating the issue as something that shouldn't happen. Until you are shocked that it happens, you're part of the problem.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#55

What I don't understand is why this happens anymore. Surely no one can think it is acceptable in this day and age. I know we're talking about some of the least socially adept group of people, but come on. I don't see how you can even operate in society if you're literally trying to lick other people in public. Disclosure: I went to DEF CON 2 in 1994 when I was a shy 15 year old and there were no women around and appa…

[deleted]

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#56
post #36

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange…

> Long story short, if you step into a bar full of males who normally have few opportunities to make contact with women in a social context...yes, you are stepping into the lion's den. Males are sexual, but not necessarily "sexist" -- don't confuse the two. On the one hand, I believe you are technically correct (the best kind of correct). On the other, you seem to be implying that this kind of behavior is somehow ok…

I agree - I do not think this type of behavior should be condoned or justified, but I do believe it should be expected. I have seen the same behavior in many bars/clubs. Deep down, every man want two things: food and sex (akin to Freud's "id"). When you have enough drinks in you, your control/moral mechanisms get toned down (your ego and super ego). So, yes, in any bar full of drunk males, any female should expect to get harassed. For clarification, this is expected, but not justifiable or condonable, in my opinion. If you give a knife, fork, and napkin to a starving person, and then feed them a steak, do you think they will act civilized and use proper manners, or pick it up and tear into with their teeth? It is a thin line that separates us from the beasts. ;)

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#57
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your opinion it "just sounds like" a guy interrupting an adult who is in a conversation so that he can try to hit on her. When it was not wanted. In what way does this fail to be sexism? Please explain your point of view in sufficient detail that you can be disabused of your misconceptions of what is and is not going to be offensive to random women. Big hint for you. Unwanted sexual attention creates what is known…

In your opinion it "just sounds like" a guy interrupting an adult who is in a conversation so that he can try to hit on her. When it was not wanted. This is so ridiculous. "Hitting on" someone is an attempt to find out if the attention is wanted. It can obviously be done in very poor taste, to the point of being abhorrent, but it can also be done respectfully. To say that he was wrong to hit on her because it was unw…

This is so ridiculous. "Hitting on" someone is an attempt to find out if the attention is wanted. It can obviously be done in very poor taste, to the point of being abhorrent, but it can also be done respectfully. To say that he was wrong to hit on her because it was unwanted attention is completely circular logic.

I did not saying that hitting on women is always wrong. I indicated that walking up, rudely interrupting someone who is talking to someone else, and then presenting weird and likely propositions to her is NOT OK. In your words, this is hitting on a woman "in very poor taste, to the point of being abhorrent."

Serious question: in your version of the ideal world, how does anyone ever begin a romantic relationship?

Seriously? Here is a strategy for hitting on women in a respectful way.

Step 1, do not simply barge in on a conversation, find someone who seems open to conversation and engage politely. Sometimes this is as simple as listening to a conversation for a bit then interjecting. Sometimes you see someone standing there who seems bored. Sometimes you need to sit at a random table and start talking with people around you. Sometimes you're both in line for something and you make a remark to the person behind you.

Step 2, engage in neutral conversation. There is a ton of stuff you can talk about. If nothing else you're at a technical conference. You can ask what the other person does, how they are enjoying the conference, etc. Don't forget to use your ears - people like to be listened to.

Step 3, assess the possibility of interest. There are a number of socially acceptable ways of doing this. One is to tell an off-color joke. Another is to point out someone else who seems to be headed towards more intimate behavior. Or you could make a mildly flirtatious remark. If a woman is happily interacting with you, and responds to a sexualized twist in the conversation with increased interest, there is a possibility that she could become interested in you. If she is draws away from that direction, that's a sign that she is not interested. But you can go back to step 2, and wind up having had a good conversation.

Step 4, if more charged topics have come up and are acceptable, then you can make your pass. Even if you're turned down at that point, she shouldn't be offended.

Note that at every step along this way you can break off and have had a mutually pleasant interaction. If you don't think that this is true, you should be talking to someone else. While getting laid might be a welcome surprise, that isn't what you are there for.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#58

Whilst there appear to be many reasonable male members of the IT community, one thing holding us back is the number of people who attempt to justify a blatantly wrong situation. Examples include arguing over the definition of sexism, saying stuff like "that's just the difference between men and women," or coming up with hyperbole about how it's not now possible to talk to woman without being labelled a creep. I do wo…

Agreed. If anyone politely asks you to stop what you're doing, you should seriously reconsider it, period. Women complaining about behavior they find creepy is just a special case of this general rule.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#59
It's not that I disagree with the general sentiment, but there's an undertone of self-righteousness there.

" I was already thinking about what clothes I would avoid taking to Las Vegas for Defcon. Short skirts, low cut tops, tight dresses, and anything that might be overtly attention-grabbing have been bumped to second priority on that packing list.

Why?"

Maybe because it's a good idea to dress as part of the business, not part of "the entertainment", if you want to be taken seriously.

And no, women should be able to dress in whatever fashion they please without being worried about being assaulted verbally or otherwise, but that doesn't imply the right to be taken seriously.

I'm just not sure whether behaviour of that kind is a net-positive in solving the gender-issues during conferences.

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