Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon • Hacker News Board

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#41

Post by dazzawazza » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:28 AM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #30

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange…

There is a grain of truth in what you say but if you look behind the individual acts I think it does show sexism.

The idea that a woman would 'show her tits' in public or private to a strange man when asked in public smacks me as sexist. Who ever created the score sheet where one of the goals was to 'get a woman to show her tits' shows an objectification of woman as purely sexual objects. This disadvantages 50% of the population based on their mammary glands.

It is a fact that men and woman flirt, it's one of the most exciting things that can happen, when two people click its quite frankly amazing.

This needs to be separated from pure objectification of anyone. If it were woman asking to see men's gonads many many men would feel deeply uncomfortable surrounded by woman with an expectation of a show and an implicit questioning/judging of the quality of their sack.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#42

Post by chipsy » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:28 AM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #30

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange…

Everyone with emotions also needs some kind of moral code that complements the emotions and gives both adequate explanations and society-beneficial outcomes - and that includes appropriate behavior for settings like a professional conference.

The problem is, and has been since the dawn of civilization - which moral code is best, and how do we educate people into it?

Your stated view has a "might makes right" ring to it - it's acceptable for the majority to prey on the minority. I hope you don't really think that's optimal for society.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#43

Post by jessedhillon » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:31 AM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #30

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange…

Prejudice, as in, a default judgment/assessment weighing against an individual? I submit that the idea that it's permitted to treat this person less respectfully because they are a woman is such a judgment, and it is on the basis of sex.

Stereotyping, as in a belief... about specific types of individuals or certain ways of doing things, but that belief may or may not accurately reflect reality. Again, I submit that the entire story is about OP having to contend with the notion that any and all women are available and open to sexual advances, and that the prejudice against respectful behavior toward them makes it easier/permissible to make those advances.

The fact that you simply cannot conceive of a plausible reverse scenario does not mean that something is not sexism. There doesn't have to be a reverse scenario, nor do mitigating life circumstances matter; everyone has a back story.

Your last line is one small step away from saying that women who wear short skirts are asking to be groped. It's tantamount to saying women don't deserve to be treated respectfully or feel safe, if enough of the males surrounding them are losers.

You might as well be saying, "don't have boobs, some men haven't seen those."

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#44

Post by DanBC » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:31 AM UTC

I like the idea of the cards. I couldn't read them. Partly because they're weirdly using text in a jpeg.

I'm gently worried about how well they'll be received. Already in this thread there's disagreement. Imagine what that's like when you're surrounded by drunk men. But good luck to them.

Clear colour / symbol coding is used sometimes with people who have learning disabilities. For example, when they need to go to a hospital for treatment they can have a sheet with "green square - things I like" and "red circle - Things you must not do" lists. Or cards at meetings to suggest people slow down or take turns in speaking. These ideas are simple, and work really well, and some people are trying to expand them into use for the general population.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#45

Post by fromhet » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:33 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #18

Prediction: The sexism in IT problem will never end. Here's my hypothesis: 1. Women and men are different. We see this played out all around us, all the time, both sides happily make and laugh at jokes about it, and no one has a problem acknowledging this fact during discussion of other topics, but when certain subjects are being discussed, these very same people will assure you, with total sincerity, that there is n…

>"There is something about IT that either appeals especially to males, or males are particularly skilled at."

Oh please, have a look outside North America and Europe. And at history. Chineese hackers and 'IT professionals' are of all genders. Hell, even in backwards US&Europe women are and has been computer heroes. Grace Hopper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper) and Ada Lovelace (http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Lovelace) for instance.

Just because European and American coulture is one way doesnt make it universally true.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#46

Post by token_female » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:35 AM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #30

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange…

Without fail, the top comment on every HN link related to sexism in the field is "that's not sexism!". What is it going to take to convince you that sexism in the tech community is real and is a big part of why there are so few women? How many women have to tell you about their experiences being sexually harassed at tech conferences before you realize that it is a problem? HN/Reddit's responses to this kind of article piss me off almost as much as the events described in the articles themselves.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#47

Post by DeepDuh » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:36 AM UTC

btilly wrote: post #31

mistermann wrote: post #18

Prediction: The sexism in IT problem will never end. Here's my hypothesis: 1. Women and men are different. We see this played out all around us, all the time, both sides happily make and laugh at jokes about it, and no one has a problem acknowledging this fact during discussion of other topics, but when certain subjects are being discussed, these very same people will assure you, with total sincerity, that there is n…

Here is an interesting data point. When you look across the sciences, there is an interesting correlation. The more mathematical a subject is, the higher the portion of people in it who are men. With a glaring exception. Pure math is about 40% women. And based on the ones that I've known, many would be competent at, and happy in, other mathematically inclined areas but they gravitate towards math because mathematicia…

"With a glaring exception. Pure math is about 40% women. And based on the ones that I've known, many would be competent at, and happy in, other mathematically inclined areas but they gravitate towards math..."

Yes, I've noticed that too.

"because mathematicians tend to be clueless enough to avoid being offensive."

Are you sure about that reasoning? Are mathematicians really that different from from scientists? I'd like to see some solid study on why math is more popular to women than sciences.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#48

Post by drewwwwww » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:37 AM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #30

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange…

Hi gavanwoolery,

There's potentially quite a bit to unpack in your statement above. I'm going to try to keep it short and to the point, because it seems you missed it in the original post. You may be a truly masterful troll.

The poster made the cards because she is literally subject to an onslaught of crude behavior, simply due to her appearing to be a woman, while at Defcon. Defcon, as you may know, is open to anyone who wants to attend. It is not a "lion's den". Nobody should have to question whether or not they should restrict themselves from entering a public place with their friends, especially due to a feature of their humanity that was present from birth.

Furthermore, this is anything but an isolated incident, which your lion's den theory that she should know better acknowledges.

The idea that the expression of male sexuality is completely justified no matter what form it takes is obviously ludicrous and impinging on the human rights of non-males. The conception of this male behavior being expected or unavoidable is exactly what is meant by male privilege.

Simply imagine you were subject to this behavior constantly by a group of people who are generally bigger, stronger, rarely held to account, defend each other as a group, and make a great deal more money than you over your lifetime.

Each individual act is not necessarily sexist; to contend that anyone is saying that is building a atraw man.

Sexism is an aggregation of these behaviors that is unfairly inflicted upon one group by another.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, if you do.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#49

Post by TruthElixirX » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:37 AM UTC

Skoofoo wrote: post #38

btilly wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is my theory. A bunch of the people present think that they can hack systems. And have read articles about pickup artists and have come to the theory that what women really want is a guy who has the balls to be up front about what he wants. So being over the top seems to them to be a way to hack human relationships. Maybe there are some women who respond well to that. I don't know. I've never had a reason to try…

The thing is that pickup artistry is a school of thought developed in the part of society populated with folks who like to get fake tans and club every weekend with girls whose lack of wit is matched only by their lack of self-respect.

I wrote a paper once in college over this. It wasn't a master thesis or anything, but the conclusion I reached was that pick up artist stuff was really just hooking emotionally crippled men up with emotionally crippled women.

I read "The Game" by Neil Strauss as part of my paper and the guy he follows in it, Mystery, is very emotionally under developed. He throws temper tantrums continually. Both Neil and Mystery seem to have huge self esteem problems and use pick up artist tricks to try to make themselves feel better without ever addressing their core problems.

The women they meet on their journey, according to them, are fantastic looking, but they too have huge emotional problems, mainly very very low self worth.

So you have these guys who are pretty intelligent from a sort of book stand point and these girls who have very low self esteem. In the end everyone in the book seemed to be worse off. Many of them spiral out of control and end up pretty bad.

It was pretty sad. :(

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#50

Post by mootothemax » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:39 AM UTC

Whilst there appear to be many reasonable male members of the IT community, one thing holding us back is the number of people who attempt to justify a blatantly wrong situation.

Examples include arguing over the definition of sexism, saying stuff like "that's just the difference between men and women," or coming up with hyperbole about how it's not now possible to talk to woman without being labelled a creep.

I do wonder how much is because, to badly misquote Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash, of males believing that they're too intelligent to be sexist.