Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon • Hacker News Board

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#31

Post by btilly » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:09 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #18

Prediction: The sexism in IT problem will never end. Here's my hypothesis: 1. Women and men are different. We see this played out all around us, all the time, both sides happily make and laugh at jokes about it, and no one has a problem acknowledging this fact during discussion of other topics, but when certain subjects are being discussed, these very same people will assure you, with total sincerity, that there is n…

Here is an interesting data point. When you look across the sciences, there is an interesting correlation. The more mathematical a subject is, the higher the portion of people in it who are men.

With a glaring exception. Pure math is about 40% women. And based on the ones that I've known, many would be competent at, and happy in, other mathematically inclined areas but they gravitate towards math because mathematicians tend to be clueless enough to avoid being offensive.

There are known differences in ability between the genders. But they are small. Until we get past the obvious social barriers to women in IT, we'll have absolutely no way of telling whether women could be interested in it. (Not that long ago women were thought to be unsuited to subjects like medicine as well...and now take a look at the graduating class of a random med school...)

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#32

Post by AYBABTME » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:14 AM UTC

I really don't understand how men, and women, can sometime come to the conclusion that grabbing this gal/dude's ass is a good idea.

Like, how does one come up with the mental process of doing this? Is it something like:

1. Homo erectus identified other gender specimen.

2. Homo erectus will walk to specimen and grab specimen ass.

3. Logicaly, Homo erectus is expecting wild sexual intercourse as a result.

4. Homo erectus carry on with brilliant idea.

Is it something so deep inside one's primale instinct that they simply can't resist? Is it the rapist sleeping inside one's subconscient?

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#33

Post by mkaltenecker » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:16 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #18

Prediction: The sexism in IT problem will never end. Here's my hypothesis: 1. Women and men are different. We see this played out all around us, all the time, both sides happily make and laugh at jokes about it, and no one has a problem acknowledging this fact during discussion of other topics, but when certain subjects are being discussed, these very same people will assure you, with total sincerity, that there is n…

I don’t believe there is any high-skilled job where you can get away with no social skills in the majority of situations.

Those high-skilled jobs always require team efforts. Only rarely can a single person do something and make enough money with that. Yes, software development has probably more such opportunities than other fields (I’m thinking of the lone developer of Tiny Wings, for example†) but it’s not the normal case. You shouldn’t go into software development expecting to be able to work on your own.

As such, software development can profit from social skills just as much as any other profession. The normal case is that you will have to work together with other people to make things happen. (And even if you don’t, you still have to work together with customers.)

—

† Who is clearly an extreme outlier. He did the overall design, code, art and music of his game all by himself. There aren’t many people who are skilled in all those disciplines to be able to make such a high quality game. It’s also pretty obvious that he can’t do as much as others can as a lone developers even though he has comparable success (but he doesn’t seem to want to, so all the better for him).

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#34

Post by kristofferR » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:18 AM UTC

mjg59 wrote: post #13

[deleted] wrote: post #3

[deleted]

"I see these women as sexual objects rather than human beings" doesn't sound like sexism to you?

People have sexual attraction to the physical bodies of other people. Women objectify men just as often as men objectify women, maybe not as much in the media yet unfortunately (but that is changing fast). Objectifying people you don't know anything about is not a gender specific trait, it's a human trait.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#35

Post by mrbabbage » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:20 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #18

Prediction: The sexism in IT problem will never end. Here's my hypothesis: 1. Women and men are different. We see this played out all around us, all the time, both sides happily make and laugh at jokes about it, and no one has a problem acknowledging this fact during discussion of other topics, but when certain subjects are being discussed, these very same people will assure you, with total sincerity, that there is n…

I teach sections of introductory computer science classes at a certain California university with an excellent CS department, and the profs have gender data on CS classes / major declarations going back decades. Back in the 80s, when CS was still emerging in popularity, CS had the highest proportion of female enrollees of any engineering undergraduate discipline.

The gender gap and sexism that we see in IT, CS, and related fields isn't inherent to the field. It's a relatively recent cultural phenomenon

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#36

Post by bkrausz » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:21 AM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #30

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange…

> Long story short, if you step into a bar full of males who normally have few opportunities to make contact with women in a social context...yes, you are stepping into the lion's den. Males are sexual, but not necessarily "sexist" -- don't confuse the two.

On the one hand, I believe you are technically correct (the best kind of correct). On the other, you seem to be implying that this kind of behavior is somehow ok or even justifiable. Explainable, certainly, but it's not justifiable. "Stepping into the lion's den" makes it sound like it's their fault for going to Defcon and not expecting to get grabbed.

If this was something as harmless as a lot of men glancing at her, or even the occasional crude date offer, I would agree with you, but being grabbed, asked to show tits, etc. These cross a line that any reasonable person would know not to cross.

It's reasonable to minimize potentially promiscuous clothing at an event full of under-socialized individuals. It's not reasonable to have to pass out cards that identify that blatant propositioning is inappropriate.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#37

Post by anigbrowl » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:22 AM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #30

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange…

Oh for heaven's sake. It is not acceptable to ask strangers to display their bodies, no matter how rarely you get out. If you want to see somebody with their clothes off, go to a fucking strip club. Stop making excuses for this bullshit behavior. If you can't understand this, visit a therapist who can help you to navigate social situations.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#38

Post by Skoofoo » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:23 AM UTC

btilly wrote: post #28

Aloisius wrote: post #10

What I don't understand is why this happens anymore. Surely no one can think it is acceptable in this day and age. I know we're talking about some of the least socially adept group of people, but come on. I don't see how you can even operate in society if you're literally trying to lick other people in public. Disclosure: I went to DEF CON 2 in 1994 when I was a shy 15 year old and there were no women around and appa…

Here is my theory. A bunch of the people present think that they can hack systems. And have read articles about pickup artists and have come to the theory that what women really want is a guy who has the balls to be up front about what he wants. So being over the top seems to them to be a way to hack human relationships. Maybe there are some women who respond well to that. I don't know. I've never had a reason to try…

The thing is that pickup artistry is a school of thought developed in the part of society populated with folks who like to get fake tans and club every weekend with girls whose lack of wit is matched only by their lack of self-respect.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#39

Post by DanBC » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:25 AM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #30

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange…

> stereotyping, [...] women, on the basis of sex."

Licking a woman's shoulder, because she is a woman, is clearly a sexist act. It's also a criminal offence in several countries.

I cannot believe that we still need to have this discussion.

I have every sympathy for lonely, isolated, people; especially if they're on the ASD spectrum. I'd welcome any sensible effort to help those people develop some social skills or get some nice social life or some company. But that does not excuse them when they assault another person - and a deliberate touch without their permission counts as battery.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#40

Post by fromhet » Fri, Jul 13, 2012, 7:27 AM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #30

Maybe the title is link bait, but I don't think this is "sexism" by definition. Sexism: "Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." A bunch of males were hitting on the author, crassly or awkwardly, but they were not denying the author equal rights. If a female asked a male to show their privates, no one would call it "sexism"; it might be rude, uncalled for, or strange…

Well, is it the dictionary that holds the true definition or is it the people who use the word who do?

Give it a thought and you'll realize that the dictionary is made of (static) paper but language is an evolving, living thing.

You claim we men, like animals, can't control ourselves, but that is false. Everyone everyday has 'opportunities' to harass women. But believe it or not, even men can be civilized and gentle. Try it!

Is the bully innocent because all the nerds are just so very dorky? Is the creep innocent just because there are too many women?