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Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

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Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#111

Post by Lionga »

gruez wrote: post #60
taway789aaa6 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The market maker will eventually need to trade out of that position This is why Citadel has $60+ billion dollars of "securities sold not yet purchased" on their financial statements. They have sold $60+ BILLION of shares to investors and not yet bought the underlying securities. So when exactly will that $60 billion of buy pressure hit the market?

>This is why Citadel has $60+ billion dollars of "securities sold not yet purchased" on their financial statements. 1. source? 2. supposing this is true, what's their daily turnover? "60+ billion" sounds like a lot, but if that's their daily turnover that shouldn't be anything out of the ordinary.

1. Just look at their financial statements they , nobody is allowed this naked shorting but Cidatel is because they are a market manipu ahhh sorry maker.

Not that others won't naked short also, it is just they do not do it openly.

Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#112

Post by Lionga »

jkulubya wrote: post #75
taway789aaa6 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The market maker will eventually need to trade out of that position This is why Citadel has $60+ billion dollars of "securities sold not yet purchased" on their financial statements. They have sold $60+ BILLION of shares to investors and not yet bought the underlying securities. So when exactly will that $60 billion of buy pressure hit the market?

Leaving aside the veracity of that figure, if they've sold $60B of shares they don't own then they must've sold shares they borrowed in some way, and that shows up in the demand/supply. Someone (or someones) in the market would know.

As a market maker Citadel is allowed to do naked shorting.

Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#113

Post by BobbyJo »

taway789aaa6 wrote: post #34
ddulaney wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For 1 — dude, please back off the “[the rules] are a farce”. Citadel and friends pay to trade with you because they think you’re dumb and they can make money off you. They’re giving you or your broker a better deal because they think they’re smarter than you. That’s all it is. They’d rather trade with you than with the median person on the market. Because they think you’re dumb. You’re welcome to be insulted by that.…

The "farce" is that when a market maker like Citadel purchase your order flow, the orders are typically not routed to the lit market (e.g. NYSE, IEX, etc) but instead routed to "alternative trading systems" (ATS) e.g. "dark pools" where your purchase has no effect on the price of the security. This breaks the whole idea of a "market" where every buy puts upward pressure on a price and sales put downward pressure. Thu…

> That's not even getting started on the "farce" that is an ETF and how they are balanced/re-balanced.

Have any pointers to info on this? I'm looking to buy into some ETFs but I've been unable to find much information on balancing (I'd like to selectively manage my exposure to some stocks that are heavy in indexes at the moment).

Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#114

Post by jjmaxwell4 »

ddgddg wrote: post #97

much hate here; but mostly it is transparent jealousy arising from frustration about the great global money game being unfair and many educated and deserving ppl having no hope of ever making it off the bottom rung. But jjmaxwell4 don't let any of that distract you 1. This problem (solid, simple, inexpensive) direct indexing is totally real 2. Congrats on identifying this and getting going on it 3. All your best cust…

Appreciate the kind words and feedback.

Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#115

Post by eithel »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #61
tschwimmer wrote: post #26

I like the idea behind this business and like the value that you are providing. I'm a target customer because I'm sensitive to investment fees and have done lots of comparison shopping over my investing lifetime. Unfortunately, I won't use your product. While you do appear to be cheaper than Vanguard for a comparable product, I don't think the risk of switching is worth it. The primary risk I'd be worried about is yo…

This can be a real thing when companies are charging $25-$40 for ACH Transfer fees (per account) meaning a switch can cost $100. One piece I'm curious about is spreading investments around simply for more FDIC / SIPC insurances? Is that something that rich people do?

> charging $25-$40 for ACH Transfer fees (per account)

Do you mean ACAT fees? I haven't seen many accounts charging for ACH fees as those are basically free. Only Wise (Transferwise) charges for it from my experience.

If it's ACAT fees, a lot of brokerages (not Vanguard) will reimburse you the fees if the account balance you are bringing in is big enough, I've noticed.

Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#117

Post by LAMike »

It's cool, but I'm wondering what the breakeven cost would have to be if you weren't planning on making money from PFOF?

Can easily see this being $5-10 a month without a problem or even $500 lifetime pass for early supporters. Also if you add Lightning Network deposits to a portfolio I would be more likely to use it, you can make money off the spread too as long as it is under 1%

Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#118

Post by elil17 »

I do think this is a great model for someone who wants to hold the S&P 500 (which many people do).

However, educated index investors typically hold a total market index fund. Double’s US small cap offering is severely under diversified and there is no international offering. 10 bps is absolutely worth it to get broader diversification and international exposure.

Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#119

Post by n2d4 »

chii wrote: post #84
gruez wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Citadel and friends pay to trade with you because they think you’re dumb and they can make money off you. They’re giving you or your broker a better deal because they think they’re smarter than you. That’s all it is. More to the point, just because they're smarter than you, doesn't mean you're taking a loss by trading with them. The public markets are shark tanks, and it's better for both sides to avoid it. Market m…

> because they know the typical retail trader isn't a shark. so why don't the sharks use robinhood, which then they can do their shark thing there, but at a better price than before?

Robinhood doesn't want the sharks because that would cut into their monetization strategy. So they specifically don't build features that sharks would need, some just convenient (eg. trading interfaces), some very important (eg. tax statements).

Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#120

Post by ryandrake »

tschwimmer wrote: post #30
jansen wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every shop is a small shop when it starts out. Maybe give these guys a break?

I mean, no. For many people the investments being handled may represent their life savings. It represents potentially decades of work. This isn't some SaaS where poor reliability means wasted time and maybe some money - the stakes are considerably higher.

I doubt they are expecting their customers to withdraw their life savings from Fidelity and hand it to them. I sure wouldn't. I could see maybe trying them out with, say, $20K of one's $2M savings. But, then at that level of investment, $1/mo becomes a significant fee. Not sure I understand who the market is.
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