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Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

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Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#41

Post by taway789aaa6 »

jjmaxwell4 wrote: post #12
agsqwe wrote: post #3

How are you going to make money?

We charge $1/month. Longer term, we think there are additional revenue streams we can enable that are similar to existing broker-dealers like Robinhood, Fidelity and Schwab. That means things like cash float, margin lending, stock lending and payment for order flow. Currently we are not a broker-dealer.

Ah yes, the old "we'll buy stocks for you and then turn around and lend them out to short sellers that actively want you to lose money. Promise we care about you!"

I do not trust any institution that makes money off of lending MY shares out to predatory short-sellers who's sole purpose is to decrease the value of MY shares.

Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#42

Post by jjmaxwell4 »

coldpie wrote: post #20

I'm not super well versed in how investing stuff works, so sorry if I get some words wrong. This isn't a fund I'd be able to purchase from my existing brokerage/retirement accounts, right? I would have to actually give my real money to you (via "Apex Clearing," who I've also never heard of & doesn't even have a Wikipedia page) to hold & manage? Even in the best of times, it'd take quite some convincing for me to give…

You are correct in your understanding.

Apex Clearing's website is here: https://apexfintechsolutions.com/ They have 19M brokerage accounts and a lot of brands you've heard of got their start with Apex (Robinhood, Wealthfront)

We're US based and regulated a RIA by the SEC.

Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#43

Post by jjmaxwell4 »

redrove wrote: post #33

I wish you had been more clear this is US only. I had to sign up, verify my email, tried opening an investment account, had to untick I’m a US citizen/resident and only then did your platform let me know I’m not welcome as a client. Oh and PS there’s no way to delete an account is there?

Sorry about that - we will try and make this clearer. I am happy to delete your account for you. Please email us at support@double.finance.

Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#44

Post by shred45 »

taway789aaa6 wrote: post #34
ddulaney wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For 1 — dude, please back off the “[the rules] are a farce”. Citadel and friends pay to trade with you because they think you’re dumb and they can make money off you. They’re giving you or your broker a better deal because they think they’re smarter than you. That’s all it is. They’d rather trade with you than with the median person on the market. Because they think you’re dumb. You’re welcome to be insulted by that.…

The "farce" is that when a market maker like Citadel purchase your order flow, the orders are typically not routed to the lit market (e.g. NYSE, IEX, etc) but instead routed to "alternative trading systems" (ATS) e.g. "dark pools" where your purchase has no effect on the price of the security. This breaks the whole idea of a "market" where every buy puts upward pressure on a price and sales put downward pressure. Thu…

Order flow in dark pools does impact the price of a security. The market maker will eventually need to trade out of that position. If there is aggregate buying pressure in the dark pool, they will adjust their quotes in both dark and lit markets.

Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#45

Post by gruez »

taway789aaa6 wrote: post #34
ddulaney wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For 1 — dude, please back off the “[the rules] are a farce”. Citadel and friends pay to trade with you because they think you’re dumb and they can make money off you. They’re giving you or your broker a better deal because they think they’re smarter than you. That’s all it is. They’d rather trade with you than with the median person on the market. Because they think you’re dumb. You’re welcome to be insulted by that.…

The "farce" is that when a market maker like Citadel purchase your order flow, the orders are typically not routed to the lit market (e.g. NYSE, IEX, etc) but instead routed to "alternative trading systems" (ATS) e.g. "dark pools" where your purchase has no effect on the price of the security. This breaks the whole idea of a "market" where every buy puts upward pressure on a price and sales put downward pressure. Thu…

>but instead routed to "alternative trading systems" (ATS) e.g. "dark pools" where your purchase has no effect on the price of the security.

1. alternate trading systems are obligated to print their trades to the ticker, albeit at a slight delay compared to official exchanges

2. price is dictated by supply and demand, not the trade being publicly announced on exchanges. Trading volumes not being public probably has some non-zero effect on price discovery, but claiming that it has "no effect" is absurd.

Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#46

Post by rancar2 »

dayone1 wrote: post #11

1) are you going to sell your trade flow to Citadel / market makers like Robinhood and your competitors do? That's the dirty secret way of making money that you seem to have completely excluded. The reality is that adds up to substantial "invisible" fees that the investor has no transparency over because you sell your trade flows to them and they make a higher than normal spread. And the whole "doesn't matter if we s…

1 and 2 are volume based hence 3 once the volume is there.

To the OP dayone1: What’s your concerns with 3 exactly? Double’s structure is innovating on the fee front like an extreme Vanguard 2.0, so overall the structure (even if 3 takes place like Vanguard) is still the best deal on the market for an individual.

Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#47

Post by taway789aaa6 »

> The Firm assesses fees monthly, in arrears. Fixed fees are $20/month, in arrears. Fees are debited directly from client accounts.

If the fee is $1/month, why does your form ADV state that fixed fees are $20/month? https://double-disclosures.s3.amazonaws.com/Double+Finance+A...

Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#49

Post by taway789aaa6 »

wrsh07 wrote: post #25
dayone1 wrote: post #11

1) are you going to sell your trade flow to Citadel / market makers like Robinhood and your competitors do? That's the dirty secret way of making money that you seem to have completely excluded. The reality is that adds up to substantial "invisible" fees that the investor has no transparency over because you sell your trade flows to them and they make a higher than normal spread. And the whole "doesn't matter if we s…

Pfof is woefully misunderstood In general, citadel wants to pay to trade with retail investors because it knows it isn't going to face adverse selection. So it will give them tighter bid/ask ratios (this is better for the customer) than they would get if they were trading in the open market, citadel isn't going to get hosed by one of them (because there's no adverse selection) It's win win win

> PFOF and excessive off-exchange trading persist because so many trading platforms rely on the revenue it generates, essentially productizing their clients. Defenders of PFOF have claimed that retail brokers who route to high-speed traders (in exchange for PFOF) provide better price execution for investors and that it’s a net positive, despite creating an inherent misalignment between these platforms and their customers, and despite public evidence to the contrary. Leaning on the flawed argument that they categorically provide retail customers with best price execution quality, there is little by way of self-regulation to foment change or prevent applications designed to optimize transaction volume (i.e. speculation and day trading) and risky activity (i.e. margin and options trading). Further, their ability to claim best execution is part of the flaw of the system, as even within the current structure better outcomes are possible on an order-by-order, and aggregated basis.

https://advocacy.urvin.finance/advocacy/we-the-investors-pfo...

Not a win win.

Re: Launch HN: Double (YC W24) – Index Investing with 0% Expense Ratios

#50

Post by ramon156 »

taway789aaa6 wrote: post #41
jjmaxwell4 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We charge $1/month. Longer term, we think there are additional revenue streams we can enable that are similar to existing broker-dealers like Robinhood, Fidelity and Schwab. That means things like cash float, margin lending, stock lending and payment for order flow. Currently we are not a broker-dealer.

Ah yes, the old "we'll buy stocks for you and then turn around and lend them out to short sellers that actively want you to lose money. Promise we care about you!" I do not trust any institution that makes money off of lending MY shares out to predatory short-sellers who's sole purpose is to decrease the value of MY shares.

Sorry if this sounds uninformed, but what is the alternative? Even the bank and pensions gamble with your money, its how they move. I wish it wasn't the case either
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