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CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

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Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#131

Post by bobsyourbuncle »

michaelt wrote: post #121
Freak_NL wrote: post #83

The question that bothers me whenever SawStop comes up: why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? Or is it and I'm just not seeing it from my Dutch viewpoint? Does anyone know of anyone who has written about this discrepancy with some numbers (emergency room admissions, SawStop sales) backing it?

> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? American hobby woodworkers all have huge two- or three-car garages giving them the room needed to store and use gigantic machines like table saws. Such large homes are unusual in Europe, and mostly owned by people who don't work with their hands. European hobby woodworkers don't lose their fingers to table saws because they're using circular sa…

Why are circular saws less prone to injury?

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#132

Post by icey »

hyperbovine wrote: post #125
ejs wrote: post #90

I love my sawstop, it's a great machine. Often times when a product has some patent-protected feature, the product itself is substandard, but I have not found that case with sawstop. It's one of my highest quality tools. It would be nice if the mechanism wasn't so destructive. I accidentally had an aluminum fence just a fraction of a mm too close, and it touched the blade. I was using a dado stack, and it did a numbe…

I'm struggling to imagine a scenario where dadoing <1mm from the fence was a good idea in the first place. I'm assuming you're talking about a miter/crosscut fence but still...

Cutting a rabbet? Probably should have used a sacrificial fence, but it's easy to see how this could happen.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#133

Post by michaelt »

bluGill wrote: post #122
michaelt wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? American hobby woodworkers all have huge two- or three-car garages giving them the room needed to store and use gigantic machines like table saws. Such large homes are unusual in Europe, and mostly owned by people who don't work with their hands. European hobby woodworkers don't lose their fingers to table saws because they're using circular sa…

Homes as large exist all over Europe. Get into the cities where most people live and apartments don't have enough space, but just outside there are plenty of people with large houses. (they often have tiny garages though which doesn't leave enough space for a saw like this) In the US people live in apartments without enough space for a table saw as well, but houses with large garages are common (apartments often have…

I'm not talking about apartments, I'm talking about single family homes.

If you look at the Google Maps marker for New York and go 90 minutes drive north, you get this: https://maps.app.goo.gl/RY9ebS6vcD5w8cQA6

San Francisco and go 90 minutes north: https://maps.app.goo.gl/wJQx9BV5C2d7C6iR9

You look up Berlin and go 90 minutes north: https://maps.app.goo.gl/7javF29PE1p6F4rb9

Look up Paris and go 90 minutes north: https://maps.app.goo.gl/nyHut9xD4eAZnhdn9

You look up London and go 90 minutes north: https://maps.app.goo.gl/VnEWsmNHSC5pc9H98

Europe's higher population density gives them has great, walkable cities, practical public transport, good cycle-ability and plentiful bus stops.

The trade-off is smaller homes and less parking. There's a reason nobody over there drives an F-150 truck.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#134

Post by bluGill »

ckozlowski wrote: post #65
bradly wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The blade guard helps too, but AFAIK, there are many instances where you can't use it. Blade guards are rarely used in shops I've worked in. I've even worked in a shop that removed the riving knifes on their saws as they got in the way of certain cuts and they didn't want to spend time taking them on and off.

Stumpy Nubs over on YT gave some testimony where he believes that a well-made blade guard could prevent most injuries. He believes that it's a culture around not using them (or poorly-made ones) that is the source of most injuries. Timestamped for convenience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxKkuDduYLk

The blade guards on the cheap tablesaws are awful and everyone removes them. The good table saws come with guards that work much better (but still not perfect sometimes you have to remove them but most of the time they work well). You can buy a new table saw for under $100, a good blade guard can be bought separately for $300 so you see why a lot of saws have cheap guards. (note that the cheap tablesaw too light duty to support the good guard)

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#135

Post by bluGill »

inferiorhuman wrote: post #61
jchw wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, see, I actually just simply don't know what the breakdown of the 30,000 incidents per year is. I would've guessed a large number of those incidents were from hobbyists and not professionals, and I would guess that the mistakes hobbyists make are different in origin from the mistakes professionals make, even if they have common threads. If it so happens that it's actually mostly professionals losing fingers, the…

I'd wager the opposite. A hobbyist will typically have a healthy fear of a table saw because one of the first things someone learns about a table saw is that it will fuck you up without a moment's notice. A pro in a hurry? Not so much. It's the pro that's gonna remove the safety guard and riving knife, be invested in expensive blades they don't want to replace if the cartridge goes off accidentally, etc., etc.

The pro knows the safety stuff too, but they get into a groove (we call it the zone in programming) and start to take shortcuts to go faster without noticing their fingers are getting closer and closer to the blade.

The hobbyist doesn't enough to get into a groove and so won't have that happen. However the hobbyist is doing many different cuts and so doesn't always remember how to do each safely.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#136

Post by jonstewart »

bobsyourbuncle wrote: post #131
michaelt wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? American hobby woodworkers all have huge two- or three-car garages giving them the room needed to store and use gigantic machines like table saws. Such large homes are unusual in Europe, and mostly owned by people who don't work with their hands. European hobby woodworkers don't lose their fingers to table saws because they're using circular sa…

Why are circular saws less prone to injury?

At least one hand is operating a circular saw and there’s often a spring loaded guard that snaps into place when the saw isn’t sawing. I’m sure plenty of people hurt themselves with circular saws, but as more of a hands-on tool you are very aware when using it. It is not nearly as precise or easy to use with large jobs as a table saw, however.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#137

Post by michaelt »

bobsyourbuncle wrote: post #131
michaelt wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? American hobby woodworkers all have huge two- or three-car garages giving them the room needed to store and use gigantic machines like table saws. Such large homes are unusual in Europe, and mostly owned by people who don't work with their hands. European hobby woodworkers don't lose their fingers to table saws because they're using circular sa…

Why are circular saws less prone to injury?

I don't claim they are (or aren't, I don't know either way)

I'm just saying you don't have tablesaw injuries if you don't have tablesaws.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#138

Post by bluGill »

michaelt wrote: post #133
bluGill wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homes as large exist all over Europe. Get into the cities where most people live and apartments don't have enough space, but just outside there are plenty of people with large houses. (they often have tiny garages though which doesn't leave enough space for a saw like this) In the US people live in apartments without enough space for a table saw as well, but houses with large garages are common (apartments often have…

I'm not talking about apartments, I'm talking about single family homes. If you look at the Google Maps marker for New York and go 90 minutes drive north, you get this: https://maps.app.goo.gl/RY9ebS6vcD5w8cQA6 San Francisco and go 90 minutes north: https://maps.app.goo.gl/wJQx9BV5C2d7C6iR9 You look up Berlin and go 90 minutes north: https://maps.app.goo.gl/7javF29PE1p6F4rb9 Look up Paris and go 90 minutes north: htt…

The space between houses is smaller, and the houses have much smaller garages. However the house themselves are similar size.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#139

Post by bluGill »

dynm wrote: post #127
bluGill wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homes as large exist all over Europe. Get into the cities where most people live and apartments don't have enough space, but just outside there are plenty of people with large houses. (they often have tiny garages though which doesn't leave enough space for a saw like this) In the US people live in apartments without enough space for a table saw as well, but houses with large garages are common (apartments often have…

Americans on average have much more living space than Europeans: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Average-floor-area-per-c...

Average is not a good measure - more people in the US live in larger single family houses than in Europe. However those in Europe who live in single family houses have about as much space.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#140

Post by michaelt »

bluGill wrote: post #138
michaelt wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about apartments, I'm talking about single family homes. If you look at the Google Maps marker for New York and go 90 minutes drive north, you get this: https://maps.app.goo.gl/RY9ebS6vcD5w8cQA6 San Francisco and go 90 minutes north: https://maps.app.goo.gl/wJQx9BV5C2d7C6iR9 You look up Berlin and go 90 minutes north: https://maps.app.goo.gl/7javF29PE1p6F4rb9 Look up Paris and go 90 minutes north: htt…

The space between houses is smaller, and the houses have much smaller garages. However the house themselves are similar size.

> the houses have much smaller garages

Yes, this is what I mean when I say few Europeans have the two- or three-car garages needed for a table saw to be practical.

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