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CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

lumafield.com

121–130 of 206 posts

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#121

The question that bothers me whenever SawStop comes up: why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? Or is it and I'm just not seeing it from my Dutch viewpoint? Does anyone know of anyone who has written about this discrepancy with some numbers (emergency room admissions, SawStop sales) backing it?

> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US?

American hobby woodworkers all have huge two- or three-car garages giving them the room needed to store and use gigantic machines like table saws. Such large homes are unusual in Europe, and mostly owned by people who don't work with their hands.

European hobby woodworkers don't lose their fingers to table saws because they're using circular saws instead.

I suspect America also has a lot more woodworkers; many of their buildings have wood frames, wood siding, and bitumen-over-wood roofs.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#122

The question that bothers me whenever SawStop comes up: why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? Or is it and I'm just not seeing it from my Dutch viewpoint? Does anyone know of anyone who has written about this discrepancy with some numbers (emergency room admissions, SawStop sales) backing it?

> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? American hobby woodworkers all have huge two- or three-car garages giving them the room needed to store and use gigantic machines like table saws. Such large homes are unusual in Europe, and mostly owned by people who don't work with their hands. European hobby woodworkers don't lose their fingers to table saws because they're using circular sa…

Homes as large exist all over Europe. Get into the cities where most people live and apartments don't have enough space, but just outside there are plenty of people with large houses. (they often have tiny garages though which doesn't leave enough space for a saw like this) In the US people live in apartments without enough space for a table saw as well, but houses with large garages are common (apartments often have garages, but they are too small for these saws and usually lack power). In my experience apartments in Europe are bigger than in the US but I've haven't seen enough apartments in Europe to be confident in that.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#124
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that injuries don’t count if the operator’s actions contributed to them and they’re not worth preventing?

I'm suggesting that people should have a sense of personal responsibility when operating potentially dangerous equipment, and that a person should not be required to pay extra for a business or hobby just because some well-to-do patent lawyer has come up with a business model which has an end-game of requiring that patents from his company be required in products.

You can’t control what sense of personal responsibility people will or will not have. So saying that they “should” have it means absolutely fuck all.

A requirement for this safety feature would be enacted in order to prevent a large number of accidental mutilations. It might make money for certain people and they might push it for that reason, but that’s not the main purpose for enacting it.

I look forward to your complaint that you’re forced to spend money on seat belts you don’t need.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#125
post #90

I love my sawstop, it's a great machine. Often times when a product has some patent-protected feature, the product itself is substandard, but I have not found that case with sawstop. It's one of my highest quality tools. It would be nice if the mechanism wasn't so destructive. I accidentally had an aluminum fence just a fraction of a mm too close, and it touched the blade. I was using a dado stack, and it did a numbe…

I'm struggling to imagine a scenario where dadoing <1mm from the fence was a good idea in the first place. I'm assuming you're talking about a miter/crosscut fence but still...

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? American hobby woodworkers all have huge two- or three-car garages giving them the room needed to store and use gigantic machines like table saws. Such large homes are unusual in Europe, and mostly owned by people who don't work with their hands. European hobby woodworkers don't lose their fingers to table saws because they're using circular sa…

Homes as large exist all over Europe. Get into the cities where most people live and apartments don't have enough space, but just outside there are plenty of people with large houses. (they often have tiny garages though which doesn't leave enough space for a saw like this) In the US people live in apartments without enough space for a table saw as well, but houses with large garages are common (apartments often have…

How is availability and cost is raw lumber in Europe?

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? American hobby woodworkers all have huge two- or three-car garages giving them the room needed to store and use gigantic machines like table saws. Such large homes are unusual in Europe, and mostly owned by people who don't work with their hands. European hobby woodworkers don't lose their fingers to table saws because they're using circular sa…

Homes as large exist all over Europe. Get into the cities where most people live and apartments don't have enough space, but just outside there are plenty of people with large houses. (they often have tiny garages though which doesn't leave enough space for a saw like this) In the US people live in apartments without enough space for a table saw as well, but houses with large garages are common (apartments often have…

Americans on average have much more living space than Europeans: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Average-floor-area-per-c...

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#128
post #23

Off topic but I wonder how broadly the idea of very expensive failure scenarios but human damage is avoided could be applied to industry at large...

Depends on the system. This would be my second to last choice as an engineer. First choice should always be design the system so you can't get hurt in the first place - but nobody has any ideas on how to do that to a table say (or we have ideas but it no longer can do the job of a table saw and so must reject them). Second is to put guards in places - we have been doing that since at least the 1980s (probably before, but I'm not old enough to remember), but guards are not perfect and so people still can lose a finger even with guards used correctly (cheap guards often limit the functionality of the table saw by enough that everyone just removes them, but even good guards are not perfect). Only after the above would I look at stopping the system when a problem is detected. Last, but only if all of the above fails - is you put warning stickers on.

Let me emphasize: you should run the above list in order. If you can design a problem out then you are not allowed to put guards, brakes, or warning stickers on./

Most industrial machinery is designed with the above process. there is a lot of machinery from early days still around with out safety, but most industry has been adding guards and brakes to those were possible and replacing (machines from the 1950s are probably worn out anyway) the old stuff. Industry also has extensive safety training for the dangers they they cannot prevent other ways. The safety results for industry is much better than it was 100 years ago. Not perfect by any means, but much better and getting better [I was going to write every year, but random chance means some years there are more accidents than others despite the safety situation overall improving yearly]

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#129
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that injuries don’t count if the operator’s actions contributed to them and they’re not worth preventing?

I'm suggesting that people should have a sense of personal responsibility when operating potentially dangerous equipment, and that a person should not be required to pay extra for a business or hobby just because some well-to-do patent lawyer has come up with a business model which has an end-game of requiring that patents from his company be required in products.

> personal responsibility

Ah personal responsibility! The magic bullet that mitigates all accidents.

All of your personal responsibility will vanish the instant you injure yourself horribly - then you'll be wholly reliant upon numerous other people who will have to deal with the horror of what you've done to yourself, or else be delayed in receiving their own care because of it.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homes as large exist all over Europe. Get into the cities where most people live and apartments don't have enough space, but just outside there are plenty of people with large houses. (they often have tiny garages though which doesn't leave enough space for a saw like this) In the US people live in apartments without enough space for a table saw as well, but houses with large garages are common (apartments often have…

How is availability and cost is raw lumber in Europe?

Good and fairly high, respectively. That doesn't stop people from woodworking though.
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