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CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

lumafield.com

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Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stumpy Nubs over on YT gave some testimony where he believes that a well-made blade guard could prevent most injuries. He believes that it's a culture around not using them (or poorly-made ones) that is the source of most injuries. Timestamped for convenience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxKkuDduYLk

Every tradesman knows people that actively refuse to use PPE and other safety equipment. There's are huge social stigmas against it in most crews.

Does that mean decorating helmets with union stuff is actually a great marketing win for safety?

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#82

Is it feasible to stop the blade in comparable time by reversing the motor?

A basic consideration of the energy involved should tell you.

355mm radius disc, mass 1kg, moment of inertia is 1/2 mr², so 0.06 kg.m² [1]. This ignores all inertia of the arbor and motor rotor, mind, which is possibly significant (smaller radius but dense, depends on the transmission whether the motor is part of the blade system - if there's a clutch or belt to let go, then the motor isn't really part of the problem, but it's also not going to be part of the solution), Say it spins at 4000rpm, or 420 rad/s (some saws go to 6000 plus and this is quadratic).

So kinetic energy in the blade alone is 1/2Iw², or 0.5 * 0.06 * 420², or 5.2kJ. For comparison, a rifle bullet is about half that, which seems right ballpark on the face of it.

So to remove that energy in 5ms (SawStop's claim) is 1MW, or a current of 4000A at 240V, or 8000A at 120V. I don't know if any big saws run on that voltage in the US (may small ones?), but let's take the lower rest-of-world figure anyway. That's roughly 1300HP or 4 top-spec Tesla Model Y's at full throttle (320kW each).

This is not completely technically impossible to deliver - you need about 400 0.1 farad capacitors charged to 250V, which are 100mm in diameter and 250mm tall and around $150 each, so a fridge-sized box, maybe two[2]. Some very large and pricy solid state switches will be needed too, and some nice copper busbars to get the current where you need it. Actually pushing 4000A into a motor winding for 5ms isn't that easy either as it's a canonical example of an inductive load, so you need even more current, plus hopefully a way to stop the current when done before turning the inside of the motor into a plasma ball. Evaporating the motor winding before you've stopped the blade is no good, and it'll be nice to use the saw again, so you'll need to uprate the coils massively, which will make the motor very heavy, very large and very expensive.

There are probably other issues like induced voltages far higher than main voltage the will need management. As mentioned earlier, you will also not be able to use, say, a belt drive - the motor needs a very stiff physical connection to the blade.

So, you won't break physics to do this, but it will be large, heavy and incredibly expensive. $50k in caps alone.

Flipping the blade physically away from the obstacle is a much better bet. Which is actually SawStop's real trick - all that kinetic energy in the spinning blade system is grabbed and harvested to move those kilos of steel down and away in a few milliseconds. Stopping the blade is just a handy side effect of stealing all the energy. You could possibly do the same with an electrical system, but it would still be very large and very heavy compared to using the exact same huge kinetic battery that will always be there (or it's not a table saw) and which is actually the threat to safety in the first place.

It's actually quite interesting to see the relative weakness of electrical forces illustrated this way. Even quite prosaic mechanical objects can develop powers that require electrical systems the sizes of small rooms to rival. And again, chemical systems contain more power still: all that spinning mass is the energy contained in a few grams of gunpowder.

[1] Edit: I double counted a factor of 1/2 in the MoI - it's actually more then I first estimated!

[2] Another underestimate as you really need a lot more as you have to get that energy out fast and you can't wait for the slow tail of the discharge curve to finish. Plus at least Nichicon only seem to go to 160V for 0.1uF!

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#83
The question that bothers me whenever SawStop comes up: why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US?

Or is it and I'm just not seeing it from my Dutch viewpoint?

Does anyone know of anyone who has written about this discrepancy with some numbers (emergency room admissions, SawStop sales) backing it?

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#84

The question that bothers me whenever SawStop comes up: why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? Or is it and I'm just not seeing it from my Dutch viewpoint? Does anyone know of anyone who has written about this discrepancy with some numbers (emergency room admissions, SawStop sales) backing it?

[deleted]

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#85

The question that bothers me whenever SawStop comes up: why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? Or is it and I'm just not seeing it from my Dutch viewpoint? Does anyone know of anyone who has written about this discrepancy with some numbers (emergency room admissions, SawStop sales) backing it?

> why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US?

Patents. SawStop does not sell outside the US/NA to my knowledge and they hold all the patents required.

In 2015 Bosch introduced a system that did essentially the same thing as SawStop, but with a slightly different mechanism. SawStop sued in the US and won against Bosch.

Since 2017 SawStop is part of Festool, which explains why their tech is slowly making their way into Festool products. For example, the TKS 80 has the SawStop functionality built in. But at an MSRP of ~2.500€ it’s not really a hobbyist machine.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#86

I bought my sawstop shortly after my partner started working in the medical field, where they'd see saw related injuries or amputations come in weekly. Saw was expensive, yeah.. but they hold their value on the second hand market, if you ever even see them for sale. I had a cabinet maker over last week, after he noticed my sawstop he showed me his 2 partially missing fingers. The company also isn't playing games, the…

> they hold their value on the second hand market

With the topic under discussion, this is an amazing pun.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#87
>, I have an altendorf handguard sliding table saw, which will stop as fast as the sawstop,

The alternative approaches from other industrial saw manufacturers that are "non-contact non-destructive" are interesting:

- cameras and machine learning used by Altendorf "Hand Guard": https://www.altendorfgroup.com/en-us/machines/altendorf-hand...

- inductive proximity (same science as Theremin[1]) used by Felder "PCS Preventative Contact System" : https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/pcs

- SCM "Blade Off" (not sure of detection method ... looks like inductive proximity) : https://www.scmgroup.com/en_US/scmwood/products/joinery-mach...

But I've heard reports from 3rd-parties that Altendorf's camera detection method is unreliable/glitchy and doesn't work as well as Felder's system. Maybe Altendorf fixed the bugs.

Also, Altendorf's philosophy of using cameras & ML instead of inductive proximity reminds me of Tesla's philosophy using cameras instead of LIDAR (Waymo).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theremin

EDIT ADD: >I'm not sure how comparable these alternatives are when two of them are "request a quote" kind of pricing, and the Altendorf is $7000+

My comment was about "industrial saws" so they're definitely not realistic alternatives to buying a jobsite SawStop for homeowners. I added italics to the adjective "industrial" to clarify this.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#88
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, reliably stopping a heavy very fast spinning object in just a few degrees of rotation is necessarily violent.

Actually not. My handguard saw will do as well as the sawstop non-destructively (independently tested and verified, so you don't have to take their word for it). They do it (basically) by predicting whether your hand will touch the blade, rather than waiting until it does touch the blade. If you wait until someone actually touches the blade, then yes, you have to operate very very fast. That is unavoidable due to phy…

But what can happen that will mean that your finger will touch the blade in a quarter of a second?

I can't think of anything, short of dropping a person on the saw.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#89

The question that bothers me whenever SawStop comes up: why does it appears as if this isn't much of a thing outside of the US? Or is it and I'm just not seeing it from my Dutch viewpoint? Does anyone know of anyone who has written about this discrepancy with some numbers (emergency room admissions, SawStop sales) backing it?

One reason could also be that the US woodworking culture treats a table saw as an essential tool (especially the basic table saw, without a sliding table), while elsewhere track saws are used more, it seems.

If you run commercial production, then you do need a table saw (but one with a sliding table!), but for hobby work you might as well spend some time for track saw setups and be much safer.

Re: CT Scans of New vs. Used SawStop

#90
I love my sawstop, it's a great machine.

Often times when a product has some patent-protected feature, the product itself is substandard, but I have not found that case with sawstop. It's one of my highest quality tools.

It would be nice if the mechanism wasn't so destructive. I accidentally had an aluminum fence just a fraction of a mm too close, and it touched the blade. I was using a dado stack, and it did a number on the carbide teeth of the blades. Good dado sets are not cheap, nor is the sawstop cartridge.

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