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Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

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Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#351

I feel like it's been a long time fretting over falling birth rates and this is the first time I've seen anyone float the idea that making life better for people might make them a bit more inclined to make more people.

So many comments just focus on DINK being selfish but there are good reasons to not have children and I agree there needs to be better incentives, and barriers removed too.

Here are just a few reasons to not have children that may not have to do purely with selfishness. Many of these may not come up in casual conversation. It is easier to look selfish and say you prefer to keep the money and spend it on yourself for fun than going in the details of things like:

- "not wanting to do that to your body" can be more than concerns about appearance. Even if survival rates for mothers is much better, there are still plenty severe injuries and side effects to deal with. Plus among my relatives, I have yet to find a woman who didn't suffer from medical violence during her pregnancy or when giving birth. This wasn't talked about among women until they were pregnant not so long ago, understandably knowing what to expect can make it much less appealing.

- same thing with expectations about what parenting is like. Parents are more open about struggles, or regret. Even if they don't regret their kids a good number I know said if they could go back, though wouldn't have their kids even if they love them. Add to this social pressure to parent a certain way, non parents being quick to judge etc.

- some folks dont want kids because they don't think they can afford it despite having two incomes, or consider that their income would severely drop if one parent has to stop working to care for the kids, making it unaffordable. They want to give the best to their kids, so they delay forever or accept they won't ever be in a good enough place.

- some people wouldn't be good parents and know it. I've talked to enough childfree women, and many felt obliged to have kids but didn't because their own mothers were resentful parents, which resulted in a traumatic childhood.

- some want kids to care for them when they're old but see elders being left to fend for themselves or forgotten in abusive retirement homes - they may decide even with kids there's no guarantee so why bother?

- some maybe tried and couldn't conceive until they found it was too late, or couldn't afford medical assistance, or lost a child during pregnancy and couldn't bear to try again.

- some may not think their genes are something they should pass on, or don't feel the need to pass on their own genes.

- Some may have cared for sibling/cousins/nephews and know they wouldn't make good full time parents but would be ok helping others as part of "the village".

Being a DINK also has disadvantages, like constantly being expected to pick up colleagues workload when they have parenting demands during work hours, not getting nearly as many benefits (at least where i work), feeling like your free time is a free for all for anyone to take outside work because you don't have kids, so it's assumed that you have nothing going on in life. Like, feel free to ask and I can help but you don't have to be so callous about it.

I see it can be hard to have compassion for each other, if each thing the other should just deal with the consequences of their decisions. I read several posts pitching DINKs against parents over income distribution. If anything, it should be all of us parents and non parents against a system that favours a handful of extremely wealthy people.

ps: also let's try to make parent's lives better instead of saying DINK have it too good. Surely we can work to make everyone equally happy instead of making everyone equally miserable...

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Well OK sure I get that that would be good for kids > And past a certain point it's not. Where do you estimate that point is? What harm do you believe lies past it?

Parent of small kids here. Tricky to estimate, because the desire to not have your kids be worse off because you didn't do enough, and the desire for them to have it better than you, are strong and not really bounded. However , the idea of parents giving 100% of themselves to the children is also an unsustainable one, and fundamentally horrifying one - if everyone things this way, generation by generation, then this…

> However, the idea of parents giving 100% of themselves to the children is also an unsustainable one,

No one is suggesting giving 100% because it is an impossibility. What is suggested is that parents and children have the same priority - the children's wellbeing.

I have 5 adult sons. The value of my wellbeing is that it enhances their wellbeing. This reflects the nature of our one-way debt. They owe me nothing. I owe them what I can give.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#353
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in the US parents can get arrested if their children go out alone. It's a failure on their laws. And of their infrastructure where everyone wants to have their own suburban kingdom with large back yard, swimming pool, garage for two SUVs and workshop. Americans don't like living in small apartments like Europeans and Asians so this is what they get.

I grew up in the US with parents that had a suburban kingdom, large back yard, swimming pool, garage for three SUVs, and workshop: I walked to, waited for, and rode the bus to kindergarten. "This is what they get" is false causation, these things have been present for decades. Helicopter parenting, liability for walking around alone, special snowflake treatment are all newly-introduced ideas.

The shift from roaming to restriction took place over generations and occurred unevenly.

A few generations ago, the trend was that US kids had a broad range of appealing places to roam and were generally free to do so.

Presently the US trend is that kids have few if any appealing places to go. And should they roam anyway, they and their parents risk legal (and increasingly permanent) consequences.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I let my kids roam free here in the US (Columbia, MD), but the reality is that they don't want to because there are no other kids outside to play with.

> I let my kids roam free here in the US (Columbia, MD), but the reality is that they don't want to because there are no other kids outside to play with. I suspect there are no other kids outside because there are few/no desirable places for kids to congregate - places that are safe from moving cars, enforced property laws and adults with poor judgment.

My neighborhood (Bryant Woods in Columbia, MD) is honestly perfect in this regard. It's filled with walking trails and playgrounds. Lots of green space.

The roads are also twisty & turny. They're difficult to drive fast on.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I enjoyed the DINK life for some time but eventually we decided to start a family and my only regret in life is we didn't start it sooner and have more kids. In the end all the fancy restaurants, nights out, fancy vacations with first class airfare, etc were nice in some ways but pretty vapid and unimportant when looking back. I won't value those years very much compared to the years with children in the house. The e…

Just to provide a counter point you don't hear. I have two kids and very much wish I didn't. I love my kids. I sacrifice for them. There are many moments of great joy. However, I don't really have a life any more. I would rather spend my time traveling, visiting friends, playing music. I would rather have more money. I would rather be healthier. I would rather have time for my hobbies. Being a good parent is a lot an…

I used to think this is where I am heading, until reading “Hunt, Gather, Parent”, and realizing that being a good parent does not mean my existence as an individual needs to stop. Me and my kids can co-exist. I just need to let go of controlling their lives.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually that life is too good for childless people, especially when they're wealthier. Take a DINK couple with high paying jobs, say an engineer and an attorney. Without kids they can have a nice house or condo, regularly take great vacations, and still be saving enough to have the option of retiring in their 40s or 50s. But with kids, that mostly goes out the window. The societal expectation is that you should…

It was actually just last month that I saw one of these falling birthrate articles actually acknowledge that many people just don't want kids, it was in the NY Times too I'm glad we are finally getting representation on that instead of all these social science studies contorting themselves to come to a child-aspiring default that couples are somehow failing to reach https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/11/well/family/gran…

Even people who do want kids frequently don't want many of them. Even back in the old days, a lot of people didn't have kids; not everyone actually got married. But people who did get married had lots more kids, so they more than made up for all the people who didn't. (Don't forget, women frequently died in childbirth.) They didn't have reliable birth control, so women didn't have much choice about how many kids they'd have.

These days, people can choose, and many women are happy to stop after 1 or 2 kids. Going through childbirth is, by many accounts, very difficult and not that much fun. All the pro-natalists (generally men) seem to completely dismiss actual women's feelings on this matter for some reason.

Anyway, when you have a society where a bunch of people aren't having kids, and the ones who are are only having 1-2, sometimes 3, the overall average is going to be well under 2, which isn't enough to maintain the population level.

As I've said many times before in these discussions online, societies need to come up with a new model, because obviously the old one isn't working, and it isn't going to come back.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The opportunity cost of having children has never been higher: you give up leisure, hobbies, rest, social life, and income. Those things are given up because parenting-time is up 20-fold from a few generations ago. From the 1960s back, kids needed parents a few hours a week. But we reduced kids' roaming area from many sq mi to just their own property . At the same time, we instituted 24/7 adulting. Most of those ho…

I think it's a mistake to project changes in US society onto that in Japan. Kids there are still largely free range.

Very true. I see little kids by themselves frequently, on the subways, on their bicycles, etc. It reminds me of when I was growing up in the US decades ago, before helicopter parenting became mandated by law there.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#358
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in the US parents can get arrested if their children go out alone. It's a failure on their laws. And of their infrastructure where everyone wants to have their own suburban kingdom with large back yard, swimming pool, garage for two SUVs and workshop. Americans don't like living in small apartments like Europeans and Asians so this is what they get.

I grew up in the US with parents that had a suburban kingdom, large back yard, swimming pool, garage for three SUVs, and workshop: I walked to, waited for, and rode the bus to kindergarten. "This is what they get" is false causation, these things have been present for decades. Helicopter parenting, liability for walking around alone, special snowflake treatment are all newly-introduced ideas.

You must be quite young if you had SUVs when you were growing up. They didn't become popular until the late 1990s. They basically didn't exist at all in the 1980s or before; people had station wagons back then.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a case where robotics and other innovations can help out.

A diaper changing robot would take care of both ends of the spectrum, young and old.

Changing baby diapers everyday for a year and knowing the process and at the same time looking at the video of state of the art robot moving parts between shelves I'm pretty sure that this solution is in a Sci-Fi (or Sci-Fi-horror) realm for a long long time.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#360

I feel like it's been a long time fretting over falling birth rates and this is the first time I've seen anyone float the idea that making life better for people might make them a bit more inclined to make more people.

It's actually that life is too good for childless people, especially when they're wealthier. Take a DINK couple with high paying jobs, say an engineer and an attorney. Without kids they can have a nice house or condo, regularly take great vacations, and still be saving enough to have the option of retiring in their 40s or 50s. But with kids, that mostly goes out the window. The societal expectation is that you should…

>But with kids, that mostly goes out the window.

That's what I mean when I say they should try making life better. Make it so that with kids I can have a house and family vacations and all the other things that my parents had access to. It's logically equivalent to say "life is harder with kids" or "life is easier without kids".

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