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Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

thedrive.com

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Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#261

Post by shepherdjerred »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #19
izacus wrote: post #18

How did we get from a situation where you could just pay with cash/card for fuel to having monopolized single-brand car fueling stations?

When it started taking 30 minutes to "fill up" your car. High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed. A gas pump costs about $25k installed. If the average person spends 4 minutes at a pump, that comes out to: The time value of a slot at a super charger can be >$5 for each charge. The time value of a slot at a gas pump is ~$0.07 per fill up. The economics of a charging business are awful. High CapEx, few cars, not…

> High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed.

Should this go down as chargers become more popular due to economies of scale? Or will they always be significantly more expensive than gas pumps?

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#262

Post by bobthepanda »

borski wrote: post #224
bobthepanda wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EV stations have a lot more competition that doesn’t need to turn a profit; a person’s home. Nobody has home gas tanks to fill up their car. I don’t know many people buying electric without having a home charger.

Literally anyone who lives in an apartment.

that's the thing, i have a lot of friends who are in apartments, and know very few of them going fully EV

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#263

Post by rossjudson »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #156
m463 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've come to notice that there is no incentive for 3rd party ev-chargers to be dependable. Telsa and rivian have a vested interest in keeping the chargers working. Their sales depend on the chargers working. Even a little bad press is a multiplier against sales. They also have significant engineering effort throughout the charging ecosystem, from the batteries, on-board infrastructure, standards, mapping, strategic c…

I'd drop Tesla from that argument. No, not that the SC network is bad. Their CEO alienated 50% of their customer base with politics. This is going to be one of the most interesting case studies in brand management and advertising history. But you are probably correct. I think making the infrastructure act funding contingent on reliability metrics is pretty key. You know, if the money doesn't get yanked by the adminis…

When I look at my Tesla, I see the hard work of hundreds (or thousands) of engineers, tasked with doing something new and complicated. They're collective trailblazers, and they know they're making the product that best it can be, given the constraints.

You look and you see one person.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#264

Post by fillskills »

bilsbie wrote: post #249

Side topic but I’ve thought it would be cool for EV owners to offer their chargers up just for people in emergencies. Battery about to die. You could even charge a big mark up. I’d be willing to help a poor traveler once a week or so. Someone should make a website like that where ev owners can list themselves for emergency charging.

Very popular in Asian countries maybe because the EVs there are much smaller such as bikes

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#265

Post by mapt »

mapt wrote: post #242
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you get past the passionate technologist crowd, and there have been signs the initial buyer pool for Tesla was already stagnating a bit in 2023, who are the next natural candidates for buyers? The mass market is 1/3 right wing, 1/3 left wing, 1/3 centrist roughly. The 1/3 right wing are the pickup truck buyers. Like a rock ... Strong as I can be. The 1/3 left wing is now pretty much a no. The 1/3 centrist is pro…

Tesla still has a great many advantages. Their problem is that their valuation had the market predicting that they would generate a MAJORITY of all profit in US automotive manufacturing - they were worth more than every other player combined. This was grossly unrealistic. So expect a down round. Whether they survive that drop to... What... 5-10% of their former value? Depends on what sort of explicit and implicit den…

*"Debts" + Android Autocorrect, ladies and gentlemen

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#266

Post by mattmaroon »

ac29 wrote: post #255
mattmaroon wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean they’re buying electricity for 10 cents and selling it for 60. They sell quite a few kw per hr that way at the fast chargers, and there are frequently lines so it’s not as if supply greatly outstrips demand. Profit is the incentive.

The gross margins on EV chargers are likely pretty good as you say. But is there any evidence that these networks actually turn a net profit? These charging stations are very expensive to install and require ongoing maintenance/repairs. The only charging network I know that is publicly traded is Chargepoint, and they have never turned a profit. In fact, their losses have increased as revenue has gone up. But, they ar…

I think the answer has to be yes. They can easily pull in a few grand a month from the electricity. They generally exist rent-free. They don’t cost that much to install.

Maintenance doesn’t seem to be even half the issue for Tesla that it is for the rest but they could also just care more. I suspect it’s both.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#267

Post by zdragnar »

VectorLock wrote: post #145
zdragnar wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storage tanks are (relatively) cheap. Stores and employees are needed because margins on gasoline are extremely thin, and it's an easy way to make money if you're already putting in the pumps. The infrastructure for high speed chargers is a lot of metal, which unlike a store, does not contribute extra money in addition to the pump.

Tanks are cheap. Land for them, and digging, are not. Employees are needed because most places require gas stations to be manned. Unless you're talking Bucee's they're not making much from selling a few drinks, they're just making marginal use of the building.

Gas stations make very little money from selling gas. The vast majority of their profits come from the building itself, to the point that if they only sold gas, they wouldn't be able to operate in most cities.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#268

Post by AtlasBarfed »

cebert wrote: post #165
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd drop Tesla from that argument. No, not that the SC network is bad. Their CEO alienated 50% of their customer base with politics. This is going to be one of the most interesting case studies in brand management and advertising history. But you are probably correct. I think making the infrastructure act funding contingent on reliability metrics is pretty key. You know, if the money doesn't get yanked by the adminis…

I don’t think most people make purchasing decisions based on the personal politics of a firm’s CEO. It will be interesting to see how impactful it ends up being.

Most car buyers buy cars on a practical basis.

For a consumer to buy an EV is one that involves other brand factors: politics/environmentalism was a large component of initial buyers. Tesla's inception was around the time of Michael Moore's who killed the electric car.

The core demographic of the electric vehicle in America is still Urban.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#269

Post by AtlasBarfed »

iknowstuff wrote: post #216
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such ANGER. The Internet says 50% of US buyers are identified democrats, YMMV for internet stats. That number doesn't seem stupid -- EVs are progressive, environmentalist, anti-establishment. Tesla's stock is a huge bubble. It's worth the next 10 car companies combined! Yes there's a ton of AI speculation in there, but fundamentally the company's stock is about geometric growth in sales. The most important customer t…

Tesla is not importing to china. Its not debt ridden like the 10 other car companies, and has a growth outlook far beyond them via FSD and renewables. They produce 1.5M cars a year, Hertz is a blip. FSD13 is looking fantastic.

What competitive advantage does Tesla have in renewables?

They produced 1.5 million. Their sales are down, they have no new models releasing, they have competition on all fronts, they likely will lose the Chinese market in the trade war. They need to sell 20 million vehicles to justify their stock.

If Tesla has a kuckass sub 10000$ sodium ion city car (aka the car for 1-3 billion people)... But they have luxury vehicles and that's it.

Fully auto drive is a convergent evolution of infrastructure problem. It is ten years away. Army of Indians won't cut it.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#270

Post by no_wizard »

ggreer wrote: post #120
no_wizard wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EV manufacturers (re: most car manufactures) are going to do all they can to get the government to subsidize this as much as possible. I noticed an explosion of EV charging stations where I live after the state government put incentives in to subsidize their build out. Other states have done it already and are doing it now. They're going to see the pattern of "I can get the government to subsidize this" and will hold…

It's important to distinguish Tesla from other companies. The others haven't figured out how to make chargers cheaply yet, so they're forced to ask for subsidies. That's why Tesla's bids on that Texas contract were so much lower than the competition. Tesla mass produces their charging stations in factories. Entire stations are assembled from modular units, mounted on a concrete slab, and shipped to the installation s…

Is it? This makes no real difference to my entire point, which is companies are learning that they should wait for subsidies, and will either build out much slower or not at all until they do. State governments have now set precedent for it.

It’s not even that I’m against subsidies, to be clear, but they’re becoming pro forma and they aren’t terribly well thought out on setting goals.

So they get subsidized to be built where they were going to build the chargers anyway

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