Live data from Hacker News

ExxonMobil's Alleged Hack-for-Hire Campaign Targeting Climate Activists

vulnu.com

61–70 of 71 posts

Re: ExxonMobil's Alleged Hack-for-Hire Campaign Targeting Climate Activists

#61
post #19

If proven, this should be harshly punishable under existing aiding and abetting laws. On the underlying matter of oil companies being responsible for climate change… the law and the morality is far less clear. We are essentially all complicit.

> If proven, this should be harshly punishable under existing aiding and abetting laws.

Convenient how the elements of the offenses in the "existing laws" are such that it's trivial for any non-idiot to structure things so their conduct can't be proven to meet them, eh? Sort of like Al Capone.

Re: ExxonMobil's Alleged Hack-for-Hire Campaign Targeting Climate Activists

#63
post #39
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are essentially all complicit Empty statement that shirks responsibility when some are complicit orders of magnitudes more than others. Even among those not directly involved in fossil fuel industries. This matters. In Nazi Germany, someone working at a screw factory, some of whose screws ended up in military devices, was also complicit. Yet the morality is clear - they weren't sent to Nuremberg whereas others w…

Where do you think Exxon sits on the giving-orders to just-following-orders to just-making-screws spectrum? And where do people buying oil products sit?

I consider myself qualified enough to determine there are orders of magnitudes of difference between them, but not nearly enough to place them at an exact location on the spectrum. I'd have to devote months and work with plenty of others to even attempt doing so and even then I wouldn't be the best person for the job.

Exxon also isn't a person, but the same would apply if you'd have said e.g. the Exxon CEO.

For people buying oil products, again there's orders of magnitudes of difference. Even the average person in Sierra Leone has bought an oil product at some point. I'm sure he's bought magnitudes less than I have though, and I have bought magnitudes less than others again. All of this does place us on different parts of the spectrum and is not to be hand-waved away.

Re: ExxonMobil's Alleged Hack-for-Hire Campaign Targeting Climate Activists

#64
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware, and that behavior is despicable, but I still don’t believe that this puts all the responsibility for climate change on oil companies generally or Exxon specifically. The public at large have known for centuries that burning fossil fuels creates locally systemically significant pollution, and we do it anyway. We have known for decades now that it creates globally systemically significant pollution, and sti…

First: I appreciate the overall tone of your comment. It's a polarizing subject, and I feel this is very much in good faith. I think there's two important points you made that I'd like to address: 1. Failures to apply meaningful penalties / punishment to transnational corporations 2. Individual culpability for oil consumption To start, I think it's worth looking at how punishments for corporate wrongdoings might look…

That Intel board article was great. It named names, responsibilities, some degree of culpability.

There are org charts and paper trails for these corporations. Corporations aren't mechanical automatons. They are made of people that make decisions. Unfortunately, they are rich and influential people.

Between statute of limitations, limited liability corporations, fall guys, unlimited resourced lawyers, and a fundamentally corrupt judiciary when it comes to corporations, there's no justice for the legal immortal invincible personhoods that are corporations.

It is nuts that physical reality is subordinate to the law and even worse, the selective enforcement thereof, but that is the nature of this peculiar filter. What will probably kill humanity? Bureaucracy.

Thanks, that's my TED talk.

Re: ExxonMobil's Alleged Hack-for-Hire Campaign Targeting Climate Activists

#65
post #63
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you think Exxon sits on the giving-orders to just-following-orders to just-making-screws spectrum? And where do people buying oil products sit?

I consider myself qualified enough to determine there are orders of magnitudes of difference between them, but not nearly enough to place them at an exact location on the spectrum. I'd have to devote months and work with plenty of others to even attempt doing so and even then I wouldn't be the best person for the job. Exxon also isn't a person, but the same would apply if you'd have said e.g. the Exxon CEO. For peopl…

I'm just curious if you think Exxon is the one giving the order to drill oil, or the one getting paid by others to do it. I'm not saying it's OK to do a bad thing just because someone else paid you to do it, but I am saying that a narrow focus on Exxon (and even more generally, a narrow focus on blame assignment) distracts from the systemic change needed across the entire global economy.

By all means punish the people who ordered the actual, specific hacking crimes highlighted in this thread, but trying to pin climate change on oil companies ignores the fact that the orders come from civilization at large.

Re: ExxonMobil's Alleged Hack-for-Hire Campaign Targeting Climate Activists

#66
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or that they just weren't very good business people. Their understanding of climate change back then was good enough to have a damned decent roadmap for how things were going to play out over the next fifty years. They were capable of projecting what was going to happen, the likely regulatory changes that wold be needed to mitigate climate change, and how that would affect them. One would expect the average CEO would…

> Being able to rebrand yourself as the company that chose to sacrifice itself to save the world buys you a hell of a lot of goodwill you can leverage for subsidies in Washington. We’d have paid them for it and thanked them for the privilege. This seems to be incorrect. Given my estimation of the current political climate, if you sacrifice yourself to save the world, you will be dead and then someone else will destro…

> This seems to be incorrect. Given my estimation of the current political climate, if you sacrifice yourself to save the world, you will be dead and then someone else will destroy the world anyway while you're not there to stop them.

Probably, but look at it from the 1970s. The environmental movement was at its greatest legislative power, the major federal environmental legislation passed at the time was often bipartisan since environmental issues weren't nearly so neatly ideologically coded as they are now, and you had a bunch of high-profile environmental disasters that kept the issue at the forefront of politics. You also had energy crises throughout the 70s. All of that severely undermined public trust in the industry.

Despite their horrible public image since then, the fossil fuel industry has accomplished a great deal politically. They managed to convince an entire political party that climate change doesn't exist despite decades of research and ever-increasing amounts of evidence. They've fended off greater legislative and regulatory oversight repeatedly since then. And while we may not be paying them to "save the world," we're still giving them a great deal of subsidies in the form of tax benefits, consumer incentives that end up increasing the usage of their products, and the massive gift of not taxing their significant negative externalities. So we are, at least, paying them.

Put simply, their lobbyists have always been skilled, as evident by their accomplishments despite the decades-long reality that the majority of Americans don't much like or trust them. So is it really that much of a stretch to expect that they could have gotten significant federal support for a clean energy transition that started back in the 1970s and was gradual enough that it didn't shock markets and the consumers? Or that, if they were able to secure subsidies and preferential tax treatment to extract fossil fuels, that they couldn't do the same for not extracting them?

Anyhow, if I didn't make it clear enough, the sacrifice would have been entirely symbolic. Exxon, for example, would have always survived the transition. It's just that their brand would have undergone a sort of phoenix-esque rebirth: Exxon the oil company would have gradually faded out of existence, while Exxon the renewable energy company came into existence at the same time. It would have been a marketing and PR message, but unlike with the attempts at greenwashing, the fossil fuel side of the company would have actually faded away. The message would have even been truthful in a way: it would have been a serious sacrifice of sorts on their part.

It's just that it could have been a sacrifice that didn't actually cost them much--and had they played their cards right, it might have been one that let them come out ahead in the end.

Re: ExxonMobil's Alleged Hack-for-Hire Campaign Targeting Climate Activists

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First: I appreciate the overall tone of your comment. It's a polarizing subject, and I feel this is very much in good faith. I think there's two important points you made that I'd like to address: 1. Failures to apply meaningful penalties / punishment to transnational corporations 2. Individual culpability for oil consumption To start, I think it's worth looking at how punishments for corporate wrongdoings might look…

That Intel board article was great. It named names, responsibilities, some degree of culpability. There are org charts and paper trails for these corporations. Corporations aren't mechanical automatons. They are made of people that make decisions. Unfortunately, they are rich and influential people. Between statute of limitations, limited liability corporations, fall guys, unlimited resourced lawyers, and a fundament…

Let’s see how long those stay public for pharma and insurance.

Re: ExxonMobil's Alleged Hack-for-Hire Campaign Targeting Climate Activists

#68
post #65
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider myself qualified enough to determine there are orders of magnitudes of difference between them, but not nearly enough to place them at an exact location on the spectrum. I'd have to devote months and work with plenty of others to even attempt doing so and even then I wouldn't be the best person for the job. Exxon also isn't a person, but the same would apply if you'd have said e.g. the Exxon CEO. For peopl…

I'm just curious if you think Exxon is the one giving the order to drill oil, or the one getting paid by others to do it. I'm not saying it's OK to do a bad thing just because someone else paid you to do it, but I am saying that a narrow focus on Exxon (and even more generally, a narrow focus on blame assignment ) distracts from the systemic change needed across the entire global economy. By all means punish the peop…

There's no one-to-one comparison, but a decent one would be a drug cartel making and selling fentanyl. Sure, the orders come from civilization at large, I guess, as if no one were to buy the stuff then they wouldn't produce it. IG Farben also has similarities.

I don't think anyone is arguing that economy-wide changes aren't needed, nor did anyone ever propose that if only we took down IG Farben, WW2 would've ended.

Correct relative blame assignment is still very important, as the Farben CEO to Nuremberg and the screw factory worker should be rehabilitated regardless of having played a minor (yet still essential) role.

Re: ExxonMobil's Alleged Hack-for-Hire Campaign Targeting Climate Activists

#70
post #55

My organization Fight for the Future was targeted by the same hacking-for-hire operation while working on net neutrality protections. It was really interesting because at the time the conclusion of our security consultants was that the attack was just random commercially-motivated prospecting. Then the Citizen Lab Dark Basin report came out years later and it was clear they were after our internal comms, so they coul…

> Yikes. That's a common response these days and while I empathize, I think it's wrong. The right response IMHO is, essentially, 'fuck them; they can't stop us'. A Soviet dissident (I don't recall the name atm) advised not talking about your arrest, torture, detention - the horrors, the fear, etc. That's what the oppressors want you to do, to spread fear and intimidation to all the people they didn't arrest; that's h…

"We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Elie Wiesel
Post reply on HN