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Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

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Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#171

Post by averageRoyalty »

zdragnar wrote: post #126
NotSammyHagar wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since fast DC charging takes more time, there's a lot more time for a person to buy something from the store.

Gas stations depend on cycling people through quickly during rush hour. A half dozen people sitting around for half an hour at a time won't spend enough to make up the difference in volume of traffic a normal station gets, and they don't typically devote space for lounges or other amenities unless they're nice long haul truck stops.

The model doesn't have to be like for like though. Set up a restaurant instead of a convenience store (think American diner style) and offer a discount on your charge for every $10 spent, or a similar integration.

Now you have a reason for someone to sit and spend money, and likely enough as EVs hit critical mass to justify costs. There are things to work out on speed of food vs charging times, potentially a queue and valet setup - but napkin maths it seems viable.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#172

Post by Aloha »

qwerpy wrote: post #157
Aloha wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you like the Cybertruck.. I find the appearance polarizing, much like G1 priuses.

It's a pleasure to drive and it has been great for what I use it for. Mostly family stuff but the occasional camping trip in the middle of nowhere. A Rivian R1S probably would have been more practical for me due to the 3 rows of seats. But I love the angular look. It's definitely polarizing, no question. Some downsides: snow/ice can block the headlights, the windshield wiper and washer fluid sprayer are bad, the rang…

I've not been a huge fan of Tesla generally because of the lack of physical buttons, as well as build quality.

I think my next vehicle, will be at a minimum plug in hybrid, and maybe full BEV, ironically, replacing our dual electric tank hot water heaters allows for us to install a charger.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#173

Post by bsder »

bobthepanda wrote: post #167
dylan604 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cons of a gas station in the neighborhood are when it's a convenient store with pumps. The sale of lotto, beer, smokes, and low cost food attract it's own crowd that the NIMBYs do not like. Switch that to a storeless unmanned set of pumps, and all of that goes away. I've seen a few of these types of locations around town. Just an awning with a few pumps under it. That's pretty much what all of the electric charge…

Eh there are a ton of other downsides. By their nature, high-throughput charging stations with lots of curb cuts are bad for walkability, eyes on the street, etc. that people want in their neighborhoods. For example many cities now ban new drive throughs. And the convenience stores are the thing that makes the money at gas stations.

> And the convenience stores are the thing that makes the money at gas stations.

Because the gas is expensive, you need to hold inventory (and have a tank that needs to be insured and inspected and ...) and a lot of the profit is going to huge oil companies.

If you are running chargers, there is no inventory and the cost is whatever the electricty costs are.

I suspect that chargers could actually be a profit center as opposed to gas pumps which barely break even and sometimes go negative in profits.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#174

Post by bobthepanda »

bsder wrote: post #173
bobthepanda wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh there are a ton of other downsides. By their nature, high-throughput charging stations with lots of curb cuts are bad for walkability, eyes on the street, etc. that people want in their neighborhoods. For example many cities now ban new drive throughs. And the convenience stores are the thing that makes the money at gas stations.

> And the convenience stores are the thing that makes the money at gas stations. Because the gas is expensive, you need to hold inventory (and have a tank that needs to be insured and inspected and ...) and a lot of the profit is going to huge oil companies. If you are running chargers, there is no inventory and the cost is whatever the electricty costs are. I suspect that chargers could actually be a profit center a…

EV stations have a lot more competition that doesn’t need to turn a profit; a person’s home. Nobody has home gas tanks to fill up their car.

I don’t know many people buying electric without having a home charger.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#175

Post by vel0city »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #118
m463 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've come to notice that there is no incentive for 3rd party ev-chargers to be dependable. Telsa and rivian have a vested interest in keeping the chargers working. Their sales depend on the chargers working. Even a little bad press is a multiplier against sales. They also have significant engineering effort throughout the charging ecosystem, from the batteries, on-board infrastructure, standards, mapping, strategic c…

I think the answer is that there needs to be, like gas stations, substantial retail/dining side-quest stuff set up to get revenue. If you don't have working chargers, people won't buy your hamburgers and pop. Or whatever. Likely though this market is going to need some regulation/standardization. In the end though, the demand is sporadic. Supercharger use is only for a minority of use cases (road trips) for a small s…

I've liked that 7-Eleven started putting DCFC's at some of their nicer locations in the US. The last time I did a fast-charging session was for a few-minute stop after a weekend spent away from home. The 7-Eleven was a pretty new location, easily right off the highway, and had a decent taco restaurant along with the usual snacks and pizza and roller grill items. Having a quick taco, grab some drinks, and a quick pee break for the kids gave us more than enough charge to get back home.

And the charger had a traditional credit card terminal on it. I didn't need any special app. Plug in, tap my payment, and it was charging.

I was doing a road trip through Ontario and stumbled upon a set of rest stops called onRoutes. These were pretty neat. A food court with a quick convenience store with a gas station and nice restrooms, right off the highway. They had a number of DCFC's which usually seemed in good working order, but this road trip was with an ICE so I can't speak to actual uptime. I did see a lot of cars charging, on my trip, so they seemed good.

https://www.onroute.ca/

More stops need to be like that for the 250kW+ stops on major highways. They were so easy and nice to go though.

For more highway-adjacent sit-down restaurants and areas (think Cracker Barrel kind of stops and those highway exits with lots of sit-down restaurants) I think it makes more sense to have those ~50kW chargers be the norm, maybe a few higher power ones. Have a dozen or so ~50kW chargers that'll have your car to 80-90% in an hour or so, four+ 250kW+ chargers for those quickly getting through, and a bunch of 9.6kW AC chargers for those stopping for a few hours.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#176

Post by burnerthrow008 »

PaulWaldman wrote: post #107
m463 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've come to notice that there is no incentive for 3rd party ev-chargers to be dependable. Telsa and rivian have a vested interest in keeping the chargers working. Their sales depend on the chargers working. Even a little bad press is a multiplier against sales. They also have significant engineering effort throughout the charging ecosystem, from the batteries, on-board infrastructure, standards, mapping, strategic c…

> I've come to notice that there is no incentive for 3rd party ev-chargers to be dependable. I don't know, how often would you stop at a gas station if their pumps weren't reliable? Many 3rd party chargers are selling electricity at a mark-up.

How many broken gas stations could you build if the government gave grants for building gas stations, but not for keeping them running?

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#177

Post by vel0city »

piva00 wrote: post #50
iknowstuff wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla’s magic is excellent, quick, and cheap manufacturing coupled with their own dedicated software for them. And constant iteration. EA is a pathetic failure because its a hodgepodge of outsourced components (so very difficult to iterate) running on some shitty outsourced windows based software.

EA is a pathetic failure because it was the punishment for Volkswagen for the emissions scandal. They were obliged to do it, not chosen.

That and it seems like VW can't reliably deliver any decent software on any kind of platform. It's incredible how they have so many cars hobbled with some of the worst UXs on the market. It's not even like most of their competition is that competent, they're just exceptionally bad.

Look at a lot of the reviews of the ID series, like the recent ID.Buzz.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#178

Post by xyst »

With current charging times, I wonder if EV companies are considering buying up the surrounding land of their charging stations and subsequently leasing the land. Once EV becomes more mainstream/adopted, people are very likely to stay in the area for a long period.

Either stay in your vehicle, or grab a nice hot meal for an hour. Maybe vicinity of EV charging stations will revive the “strip mall”

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#179

Post by vel0city »

averageRoyalty wrote: post #169
Schiendelman wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rivian designed their vehicles long before Tesla offered them access to superchargers.

Globally, Tesla chargers have been available to most EVs for many years. America moving to a standard shouldn't have shocked anyone.

The chargers shouldn't have been made so short as to only ever accept 2-3 models of cars with identical charger placements. But they were designed to only work with a few Tesla models, so they weren't designed with flexibility in mind. Even Cybertrucks towing have a big issue with the vast majority of existing deployed chargers.

Lots of ICE vehicles have their gas inlets in a number of different spots. Some even have them behind the rear license plate! And yet people don't seem to have an issue getting gas in their cars.

IMO having the vast majority of chargers at the head like that was a bad decision. Putting them on the side of the spots makes a ton of sense and really opens up a lot of flexibility.

Re: Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs

#180

Post by vel0city »

ggreer wrote: post #162
peutetre wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would also bet that EV manufacturers will standardize on a port location similar to how gas vehicles have No need. Just make the cables longer and the problem is solved. Even Tesla has put longer cables on their V4 chargers. Here's a long cable on some EnBW Alpitronic chargers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK2shbCwDYM

Longer cables have significant disadvantages. They cost more. They're less efficient, meaning they charge slower and/or require more cooling. They contain more metal, making them more appealing to thieves. They get tangled and damaged more easily. That's why Tesla made their cables so short and standardized on a charging port location. I'm sure future charging stations will have some long cables for vehicles with odd…

The cables are going from a cabinet many meters away from the dispenser to the dispenser. They could go another 3-4 feet and suddenly support a lot more vehicles.

Or Tesla could have placed the dispensers to the sides of even some of the spaces and alleviated the issue.

But Tesla envisioned only the few Tesla models to ever charge at Tesla chargers, so they designed them with tight tolerances.

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