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Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

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Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#221

Post by makeitdouble »

Rendello wrote: post #211
makeitdouble wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was largely true 10 to 20 years ago and is still true in some pockets of society. The younger have been giving the middle finger to these kind of companies for a while now. Either literally, by proxy, or going elsewhere and/or quit the whole corporate culture altogether and doing "shit" jobs with more flexibility instead (they feel screwed either way, at least they'll do it on their own term) This 4 days week me…

I have a friend, Mai (let's say), who's from Japan (and is as terrified as I am at the country's work culture). She texted her high school friend who's still there and working in an office, day-in and day-out, and Mai asked her if she's hanging out or talking to any of her old friends. The friend said "You're my friend Mai :) I only talk with you". She only sends her a text on Christmas and her birthday, that's the e…

I also anecdotaly know a number of people in that bucket. I don't know for your friend, but for many it comes down to not caring that much about having "friends".

They will prioritize their hobbies over basically anything, including socialization (they can still socialize inside their hobby group, but they might not be "friends" in the traditional way)

I'd see it as the same line of thinking as DINK, except with a single income and no fucks given about romantic relationships. Of course the situation could be different if they were super affluent, but as they have to prioritize they choose what makes them happy regardless of social norms.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#222

Post by insane_dreamer »

hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #161
orangecat wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually that life is too good for childless people, especially when they're wealthier. Take a DINK couple with high paying jobs, say an engineer and an attorney. Without kids they can have a nice house or condo, regularly take great vacations, and still be saving enough to have the option of retiring in their 40s or 50s. But with kids, that mostly goes out the window. The societal expectation is that you should…

I'll gladly volunteer to be the first to say "Fuck those societal expectations, that's insane." You don't owe your children much more than food, love and a roof over their head. Sure, you might want to give them the world, but don't listen to anyone telling you that's the expectation - that's a fast track to resentment.

> You don't owe your children much more than food, love and a roof over their head.

except that "love" part is a huge bucket that includes pretty much everything that we do for our kids (which is a heck of a lot more than food and shelter)

> expectation

it's not social expectation that drive what we sacrifice for our children; it's our love for our children that does, at least the parents I know (including myself)

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#223

Post by paulryanrogers »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #210
jefbyokyie wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you describe as reciprocation is actually transgenerational exploitation. Be forcefully taken-from when you are young, and then forcefully take (from the young) when you are old. It should be unidirectional giving. Give to your children, and save for yourself. Retire to an assisted living facility, don't become a burden. Hope to die as soon as you become a burden. If you decide to die, because you are done livin…

Their view is a product of hard times. Your view is a product of good times. Theirs is the observation that people will be more committed to work hard to make things better, if they can hope to eventually rest and partake in some of the improvements. Yours is basically "fuck off, YOLO and people should just have fun ". Both views have some good points behind them, but then yours is unsustainable over more than a gene…

Parents chose to have children, how many (i.e. how much their attention is divided), how they'll raise them (with near absolute authority), and pick 50% of the kids' genes (via the other parent). Children chose nothing. They owe nothing.

It's selfish to demand your children be personally responsible for you.

Making young people miserable under the crushing weight of caring for themselves and their irresponsible elders won't inspire them to produce and share grandkids.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#224

Post by Rendello »

makeitdouble wrote: post #221
Rendello wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend, Mai (let's say), who's from Japan (and is as terrified as I am at the country's work culture). She texted her high school friend who's still there and working in an office, day-in and day-out, and Mai asked her if she's hanging out or talking to any of her old friends. The friend said "You're my friend Mai :) I only talk with you". She only sends her a text on Christmas and her birthday, that's the e…

I also anecdotaly know a number of people in that bucket. I don't know for your friend, but for many it comes down to not caring that much about having "friends". They will prioritize their hobbies over basically anything, including socialization (they can still socialize inside their hobby group, but they might not be "friends" in the traditional way) I'd see it as the same line of thinking as DINK, except with a si…

Fair enough, I like having friends but have a hard time figuring out when to fit them into my schedule.

In this case, I know my friend's friend talked about constant overtime and not having a life outside of the office.

I sent Mai this video of the crazy day-in-the-life of a salaryman in Japan [1], and we both felt it was crazy, but she said "I actually think he likes it". Some people are cut out for overtime every day but I know I'd go crazy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tmjXp_AYg0

---

Unrelated, but I (sort of) wish English had an obviative case. It's hard to give a story about a friend and their friend of the same gender in English without ambiguity, hence why I gave [person 1] a name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obviative

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#225

Post by insane_dreamer »

thinkingtoilet wrote: post #208
nemo44x wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I enjoyed the DINK life for some time but eventually we decided to start a family and my only regret in life is we didn't start it sooner and have more kids. In the end all the fancy restaurants, nights out, fancy vacations with first class airfare, etc were nice in some ways but pretty vapid and unimportant when looking back. I won't value those years very much compared to the years with children in the house. The e…

Just to provide a counter point you don't hear. I have two kids and very much wish I didn't. I love my kids. I sacrifice for them. There are many moments of great joy. However, I don't really have a life any more. I would rather spend my time traveling, visiting friends, playing music. I would rather have more money. I would rather be healthier. I would rather have time for my hobbies. Being a good parent is a lot an…

that's sad (I don't mean that in a mean way)

yeah, there are times when I've felt like that, but they're pretty fleeting

at what age did you start a family? I think one of the reasons people should start a family a bit later (early thirties maybe) is so that they have the opportunity to experience/enjoy those things without kids (and not have to wait until the kids are all grown up and then they're in their 50s and it's just not the same as the stuff you can do in your 20s).

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#226

Post by insane_dreamer »

colechristensen wrote: post #139
orangecat wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually that life is too good for childless people, especially when they're wealthier. Take a DINK couple with high paying jobs, say an engineer and an attorney. Without kids they can have a nice house or condo, regularly take great vacations, and still be saving enough to have the option of retiring in their 40s or 50s. But with kids, that mostly goes out the window. The societal expectation is that you should…

The parents I've seen seem to spend every waking second doting on their children for at least a decade, which seems strange to me. This hovering "what can I do to satisfy your desires" literally just constantly (I've also seen people doing this with their dogs). Maybe I'm missing something or my sample size is skewed. The people I've seen doing this are also just exhausted, as they've said directly. It comes down to.…

> The parents I've seen seem to spend every waking second doting on their children for at least a decade, which seems strange to me. This hovering "what can I do to satisfy your desires" literally just constantly (I've also seen people doing this with their dogs)

parenting doesn't have to be like this for the kids to be happy; in fact, it's probably counter-productive in many cases

I have also seen this and in many cases it's pressure for the kids to succeed. Back in the 70s and early 80s you literally just had to not fall off the wagon, and could get a job and be okay. Wanted to go to Stanford, or become a doctor? Sure it would take some work, but completely doable. Want your kid to go to Stanford now if they like? You have to put your kid through a horribly stressful regime that starts in preschool, and even then it's going to be a lottery. Granted you don't need to go to Stanford to be happy but my point being that you want your kids to have opportunities, and getting those opportunities is SO FUCKING HARDER than it was for you as the parent when you were young (and way way harder than your own parents). And so you have to optimize for it, and the earlier you start, the better your chances. It's crushing for the parents and the kids. And the more successful the parents were, the more pressure to give their kids the same opportunities they had.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#227

Post by FredPret »

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #218
FredPret wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ipaddr has a point. The average person (non-scientist, non-technical) has replaced belief in the supernatural and the church with belief in science and the institutions of the state, and though there have been major improvements, we haven't completely refactored the old yet. Community and meaning is major functionality that we have yet to figure out anew.

I mean, this is the concept of the "third space." They have existed throughout history and while churches are certainly one example, they are not the only example. A church (or temple or mosque or whatever) fills a certain community role as a gathering space for religious worship, but it's not the only place where you can meet and talk to people.

Come up with a third space to rival the church of old and you’ll be hailed as a cultural hero for the next millenium. Starbucks has not cut it.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#228

Post by insane_dreamer »

nkzd wrote: post #45
reverendsteveii wrote: post #29

I feel like it's been a long time fretting over falling birth rates and this is the first time I've seen anyone float the idea that making life better for people might make them a bit more inclined to make more people.

I am not sure about this one. In the past, quality of life was terrible compared to modern life but fertility was not an issue.

> In the past, quality of life was terrible compared to modern life but fertility was not an issue.

not sure which "past" you're referring to, but in agricultural societies, more kids was important to survival and quality of life, as you needed hands on the farm; also, the child mortality rate was much higher so you had to have more kids to start with; that was also pre-birth control -- as soon as that was introduced the birth rate started to fall tremendously

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#229

Post by insane_dreamer »

OK, but are they going to take that time off?

I mean technically they have 5 day work weeks now, but Japanese "salarymen" are notorious for working 80 hours weeks. (Though maybe this isn't the case for government workers)

Just getting people down to working 40 hours / week would be a huge improvement in QOL.

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