Governments destroyed the notion of family. Now they want kids. Nobody sees the contradiction?
Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees
201–210 of 367 posts
Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
i've worked 10s before, and it's alternately amazing and terrible. at an office job, answering emails and going to meetings, 10hrs is completely beyond my tolerance level. but if you've got a project, and you can just put your head down and work, then 10s are really nice.
I agree. It's nice if you have something you can get into flow on. The biggest issue with 10s is commute time. If you work 10s with an hour+ commute, that's just awful.
10s may help the commute, depending on duration of local rush hour. I've worked places where leaving at peak meant an hour drive home, and waiting an hour (or two) meant a 30 minute drive home.
Otoh, if you take mass transit, waiting an hour or two may put you into all stop trains which could increase your commute time.
Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s basically the same model as social security is supposed to be. It’s reciprocated societally by you putting in lots when you’re young and then you get the benefits when you’re old.
Yes, but it matters how much it intrudes on your personal life. Paying social security (and saving for retirement) when you are young, and getting (some) coverage when you are old, is one thing. It's "only" money. Having your time, availability, emotional capacity, mental health sucked dry by the elderly in your own family is an entirely different thing. Raising small children is an extreme challenge that requires al…
> Raising small children is an extreme challenge that requires all your resources
Indeed, and in the past, this would've been offset by everyone around the parents - the old, the young, the other families and the childless aunts and uncles - all chiming in to share the burden. Social security & retiremenet is basically an attempt to give a substitute for that, for the village, but things are getting more and more pathological with each generation.
Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with this as the main factor (over cost) for the falling birth rate. The opportunity cost of having children has never been higher: you give up leisure, hobbies, rest, social life, and income. Whether or not children is worth this cost is a personal thing, but it seems kinda obvious that as the cost increases, fewer will pay it.
> The opportunity cost of having children has never been higher: you give up leisure, hobbies, rest, social life, and income. Those things are given up because parenting-time is up 20-fold from a few generations ago. From the 1960s back, kids needed parents a few hours a week. But we reduced kids' roaming area from many sq mi to just their own property . At the same time, we instituted 24/7 adulting. Most of those ho…
I think it's a mistake to project changes in US society onto that in Japan. Kids there are still largely free range.
Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not saying you are wrong here, but I think it is important to ground all of these old:young dynamics in culture. 'Subordinate', to me, is a very western lens and looks past the crucial point that the Japanese view power structures with far more optimism than we do. Japan clearly has its own problems, but honour and duty play a significant part in their culture and, admirably, contributes to the creation of a high…
Arguably, the Japanese view a society that takes care of the elderly with respect as a benefit to themselves. In the other hand, it is a characteristic of Western society to see every moment as an opportunity to make immediate profits, even at the expense of their own future.
"A society grows great when the old plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit."
Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well OK sure I get that that would be good for kids And past a certain point it's not.
>> Well OK sure I get that that would be good for kids > And past a certain point it's not. Where do you estimate that point is? What harm do you believe lies past it?
Parent of small kids here. Tricky to estimate, because the desire to not have your kids be worse off because you didn't do enough, and the desire for them to have it better than you, are strong and not really bounded.
However, the idea of parents giving 100% of themselves to the children is also an unsustainable one, and fundamentally horrifying one - if everyone things this way, generation by generation, then this robs existence from any meaning. It's admitting that all the good and nice things in the world, all that separates us from other animals, are all accidents, all made by people who weren't good enough at giving their children their best, and instead wasted their time on stuff like arts and sciences.
So I think there must be a point somewhere. And perhaps a hint of that is the observation that kids are better off with happy parents than with unhappy ones.
Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s basically the same model as social security is supposed to be. It’s reciprocated societally by you putting in lots when you’re young and then you get the benefits when you’re old.
That's tremendously reductionistic.
Not really. Societies all over structure taking care of old retired people in different ways.
They all generally depend on the model of there being population growth though in order to keep the burden on the younger generations tolerable.
Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's actually that life is too good for childless people, especially when they're wealthier. Take a DINK couple with high paying jobs, say an engineer and an attorney. Without kids they can have a nice house or condo, regularly take great vacations, and still be saving enough to have the option of retiring in their 40s or 50s. But with kids, that mostly goes out the window. The societal expectation is that you should…
I enjoyed the DINK life for some time but eventually we decided to start a family and my only regret in life is we didn't start it sooner and have more kids. In the end all the fancy restaurants, nights out, fancy vacations with first class airfare, etc were nice in some ways but pretty vapid and unimportant when looking back. I won't value those years very much compared to the years with children in the house. The e…
Just to provide a counter point you don't hear. I have two kids and very much wish I didn't. I love my kids. I sacrifice for them. There are many moments of great joy. However, I don't really have a life any more. I would rather spend my time traveling, visiting friends, playing music. I would rather have more money. I would rather be healthier. I would rather have time for my hobbies. Being a good parent is a lot and nearly all consuming. I feel like a lot of people feel like I do but are too decent to say it out loud.
Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees
#209Governments destroyed the notion of family. Now they want kids. Nobody sees the contradiction?
How did the Japanese government destroy the notion of family?
Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think reciprocation can be analyzed in a dynamic setting like that. Another version of this is, what happens if the younger generation doesn't take the deal -- do they get fired? Keeping them on is a form of reciprocation, even if bleak. Likewise, is there an implicit deal where when the young get old, they get to work less? If so, it is eventually reciprocated. I do think it is not reciprocated instantaneous…
What you describe as reciprocation is actually transgenerational exploitation. Be forcefully taken-from when you are young, and then forcefully take (from the young) when you are old. It should be unidirectional giving. Give to your children, and save for yourself. Retire to an assisted living facility, don't become a burden. Hope to die as soon as you become a burden. If you decide to die, because you are done livin…
Their view is a product of hard times. Your view is a product of good times. Theirs is the observation that people will be more committed to work hard to make things better, if they can hope to eventually rest and partake in some of the improvements. Yours is basically "fuck off, YOLO and people should just have fun". Both views have some good points behind them, but then yours is unsustainable over more than a generation or two, while GP's view is the one that sustains and enables yours.
Complicating things is the fact that for the fist 10+ years, children are extreme burden, so the "transgenerational exploitation" is actually done by the younger generation, even if they didn't mean it. That's the cost of bringing them into existence. It's not fair for parents to keep their children forever in their debt, but let's not pretend we don't owe anything to our parents and their generation either.