Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#171

Post by FredPret » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 10:38 PM UTC

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #104

ipaddr wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We take so much for granted. Living in a world without electricity, medicine, food scarcity, lack of safety net. Family didn't offer as much support as it appears. Average kids are working farms rich children are sent away to be raised. The social bonds of the modern world still exist in the same places as the past. It starts with the church.. so if you crave the social connections you can still go to church to find…

You almost had a coherent point until the last sentence. I'll take my social bonds without the side-order of dogma, thanks.

ipaddr has a point.

The average person (non-scientist, non-technical) has replaced belief in the supernatural and the church with belief in science and the institutions of the state, and though there have been major improvements, we haven't completely refactored the old yet. Community and meaning is major functionality that we have yet to figure out anew.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#172

Post by jefbyokyie » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 10:43 PM UTC

dukeyukey wrote: post #151

coliveira wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably, the Japanese view a society that takes care of the elderly with respect as a benefit to themselves. In the other hand, it is a characteristic of Western society to see every moment as an opportunity to make immediate profits, even at the expense of their own future.

In this case, it's taking care of the elderly to the huge detriment of the young. And when you do that, you kinda lose the future.

Exactly. What sane grandparent would want to live at the cost of cannibalizing their grandchildren? What the sandwich generation received as kids, they need to pay that forward, not back.

For one, I don't want a long life. I want to live as long as I'm not a burden. Don't want to burn down in my final years all that I will have built up for my kids and their kids.

Now, they say that anime is not real life in Japan, and it's true; however it absolutely reflects (I dare say: indoctrinates viewers with) cultural elements of Japan. And this "fuck up your kids' lives so you can take care of your parents" is so characteristic. A good example (of this terrible phenomenon) is in Lovely Complex, where Nobu-chan effectively needs to abandon her sweetheart Nakao-kun, just so she can care for her grandmother, who's about to move to Hokkaido. The most heart-wrenching part is where Nakao and Nobu's grandma sit at the dining table, and Nakao is guilt-tripped into actively encouraging Nobu's grandma to travel to Hokkaido and to rob him of his beloved Nobu. Fuck all that, seriously.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#173

Post by jmward01 » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 10:43 PM UTC

orangecat wrote: post #112

jmward01 wrote: post #83

This focuses on fertility, but the bigger deal here is it creates jobs. Because when you reduce the availability of labor you create more jobs and spur the economy. Not only will more people have jobs, but they will have more time to spend money. So this is potentially a win for the local economy.

This is a variant of the broken window fallacy. Paying more in labor for the same amount of output is not good for the economy.

This isn't destroying anything so I'm not sure why you say this has anything to do with the broken window fallacy or why this could be bad for the economy.

Since there is confusion here, I'll pose this as a different thought experiment to make my points more clear: If it isn't good for the economy to reduce the average hours per worker then does that mean it is good for the economy to increase them? If we reduce the free-time of people then they will have even less time to spend their money and consume goods. Arguably they would also have less incentive to care about free-time activities that they can only, at best, sample.

The basic question I am raising is why is 5 days of 8 hours magically the right number. I'd argue that the more free time people have the more chance to consume they have. We balance that with the need to produce though. So an optimum point is actually driven by efficiency. The more efficient we are the more we should be diverting to free-time in order to drive more demand for the the. efficient goods we are producing. In a world where we are infinitely efficient then 100% of time should be spent in free-time in order to consume the most goods produced by that infinite efficiency. We aren't there yet so we still need to balance production against free-time but we are more efficient than we were 20 years ago so we should be finding ways to give back free-time to drive up demand.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#174

Post by WarOnPrivacy » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 10:43 PM UTC

halgir wrote: post #168

hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll gladly volunteer to be the first to say "Fuck those societal expectations, that's insane." You don't owe your children much more than food, love and a roof over their head. Sure, you might want to give them the world, but don't listen to anyone telling you that's the expectation - that's a fast track to resentment.

On the contrary, from a moral standpoint you owe your children everything. You forced them into existence without their consent. Though I agree that doesn't have to mean conforming to societal expectations of ivy league schools and so forth. Food, love and a roof over your head goes a long way.

> from a moral standpoint you owe your children everything. You forced them into existence without their consent.

I offer that the above is the first truth of parenting.

After I understood it, organizing my priorities became far simpler.

Parenting is service.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#175

Post by orangecat » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 10:44 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #155

colechristensen wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parents I've seen seem to spend every waking second doting on their children for at least a decade, which seems strange to me. This hovering "what can I do to satisfy your desires" literally just constantly (I've also seen people doing this with their dogs). Maybe I'm missing something or my sample size is skewed. The people I've seen doing this are also just exhausted, as they've said directly. It comes down to.…

It really cannot be understated how few homes we have built since the Great Recession and the terrible impact that has had on COL. To give an idea of what it takes to solve a housing shortfall, Sweden successfully embarked on a million-homes program over a decade in the 70s when the population of Sweden was 7 million. NYC recently just celebrated the passage of a zoning reform that allows at most 80,000 new homes, an…

Yes. I 100% believe in the Housing Theory of Everything: https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-housing-theory-of-every...

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#176

Post by kirubakaran » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 10:45 PM UTC

antisthenes wrote: post #44

mikestew wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best time to plant a tree, and all… Surely your argument isn’t, “at this point, why bother to do anything?”

> Surely your argument isn’t, “at this point, why bother to do anything?” Surely if the effort exceeds the value of the outcome, then it shouldn't be done?

You haven't made an argument for that point at all

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#177

Post by hiAndrewQuinn » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 10:46 PM UTC

halgir wrote: post #168

hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll gladly volunteer to be the first to say "Fuck those societal expectations, that's insane." You don't owe your children much more than food, love and a roof over their head. Sure, you might want to give them the world, but don't listen to anyone telling you that's the expectation - that's a fast track to resentment.

On the contrary, from a moral standpoint you owe your children everything. You forced them into existence without their consent. Though I agree that doesn't have to mean conforming to societal expectations of ivy league schools and so forth. Food, love and a roof over your head goes a long way.

Disagree philosophically, there was no "them" to consent prior to them existing, so no one was forced. I think this is gesturing at Benatar's antinatalist argument but as you'll recall it rests on a metaphysical asymmetry here I have just never found convincing. Appreciate you keeping the pushback civil, however.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#178

Post by 05 » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 10:50 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #157

ativzzz wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not totally wrong, just replace "Religious organizations" with "Governments" and "tax-free status" with "solders and workers"

How about we go further, and replace "Governments" with "human civilization" and "tax-free status" with "continued existence"?

Unbounded population growth is sufficient but not necessary for continued existence of a civilization..

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#179

Post by vlovich123 » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 10:51 PM UTC

halgir wrote: post #168

hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll gladly volunteer to be the first to say "Fuck those societal expectations, that's insane." You don't owe your children much more than food, love and a roof over their head. Sure, you might want to give them the world, but don't listen to anyone telling you that's the expectation - that's a fast track to resentment.

On the contrary, from a moral standpoint you owe your children everything. You forced them into existence without their consent. Though I agree that doesn't have to mean conforming to societal expectations of ivy league schools and so forth. Food, love and a roof over your head goes a long way.

It's interesting to compare this perspective with religious teachings which tend to say that kids owe everything to their parents ("honor") and that parents responsibility is to train their kids with good moral character (on top of food, love & shelter).

As a parent you want to give them everything but you then have to balance that against realities & other priorities. That's part of the training of a good moral character: learning to manage life's limitations & your response to those limitations.

Re: Tokyo is set to introduce a four-day workweek for government employees

#180

Post by jefbyokyie » Fri, Dec 06, 2024, 10:53 PM UTC

metacritic12 wrote: post #153

wubrr wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the subordinates have to lie about taking time off, and intentionally accept lower pay for the benefit of their superiors - then no, it's definitely not reciprocated. I'd argue the subordinates are straight up being abused in this case.

I don't think reciprocation can be analyzed in a dynamic setting like that. Another version of this is, what happens if the younger generation doesn't take the deal -- do they get fired? Keeping them on is a form of reciprocation, even if bleak. Likewise, is there an implicit deal where when the young get old, they get to work less? If so, it is eventually reciprocated. I do think it is not reciprocated instantaneous…

What you describe as reciprocation is actually transgenerational exploitation. Be forcefully taken-from when you are young, and then forcefully take (from the young) when you are old.

It should be unidirectional giving. Give to your children, and save for yourself. Retire to an assisted living facility, don't become a burden. Hope to die as soon as you become a burden. If you decide to die, because you are done living, I firmly believe that you can die.