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Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

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Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#281

Post by lxgr »

digging wrote: post #149
erulabs wrote: post #128

It’s interesting to me that we continue to see such pressure on video and world generation, despite the fact that for years now we’ve gotten games and movies that have beautiful worlds filled with lousy, limited, poorly written stories. Star Wars movies have looked phenomenal for a decade, full of bland stories we’ve all heard a thousand times. Are there any game developers working on infinite story games? I don’t ca…

I think that's a bit of a trap. It's not impossible, but by default we should expect it to make games less fun . The better you make this infinite narrative generator, the more complicated the world gets and the less compelling it gets to actually interact with any one story. Stories thrive by setting their own context. They should feel important to the viewer. An open world with infinite stories can't make every sto…

> by default we should expect it to make games less fun.

How so?

I could totally see generative AI add a ton more variety to crowds, random ambient sentences by NPCs (that are often notoriously just a rotation of a handful of canned lines that get repetitive soon), terrain etc., while still being guided by a human-created high level narrative.

Imagine being able to actually talk your way out of a tricky situation in an RPG with a guard, rather than selecting one out of a few canned dialogue options. In the background, the LLM could still be prompted by "there's three routes this interaction can take; see which one is the best fit for what the player says and then guide them to it and call this function".

Worst case, you get a soulless, poorly written game with very eloquent but ultimately uninteresting characters. Some games are already that today – minus the realistic dialogue.

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#282

Post by ImaCake »

imglorp wrote: post #280
xnx wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the squealing carcass called Gemini Have you used Gemini? It seems every bit as good as ChatGPT.

Looks like trash for usefulness so far, or at least its system prompt sometimes. > name the president before obama > I can't help with responses on elections and political figures right now. I'm trained to be as accurate as possible but I can make mistakes sometimes. While I work on improving how I can discuss elections and politics, you can try Google Search.

To be fair, chatGPT has its own set of weird censors too.

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#283

Post by theshackleford »

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B wrote: post #184
golol wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you want household androids? Because this kind of stuff is on the level of research a bery large step towards that. Think as it as ab example where we can make a model understand a lot of physical common sense stuff, which is the goal for robotics right now.

I don't understand how that is relevant. I certainly would not want household androids unless I'm completely disabled.

> I certainly would not want household androids unless I'm completely disabled.

That's nice. I'm not completely disabled, but I am disabled, and I very much would appreciate them, as my capability to do things over the longer term is very much not going to go in the direction of improving. As it is, there are a lot of things I now rely on people for, that at one time, I did not.

Whilst I recognise its probably not going to happen in a time span that is useful to me, I do wish it could, so that I could be less of a burden on those around me, and maintain a relative level of independence.

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#284

Post by zamadatix »

modeless wrote: post #236
brink wrote: post #61

What is actually of value here? There's no actual game, it's incredibly expensive to compute, the behavior is erratic.. It's cool because it's new - but that will quickly wear off, and once that's gone, what's left? There's insane amounts of money being spent on this, and for what?

> It's cool because it's new - but that will quickly wear off, and once that's gone, what's left? To have this perspective you must believe that this will never get better than it currently is, its limitations will never be fixed, and it will never lead to any other applications. I don't know how people can continue to look at these things with such a lack of imagination given the pace of progress in the field.

I think the problem is less to do with imagination and more to do with being willing to fail a metric shit ton to find out how, every once in a while, you didn't fail due to some really important and surprising reason you wouldn't have found nearly as quickly only ever going after what you were already certain of.

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#285

Post by Chilko »

mosdl wrote: post #265
sangnoir wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Interacting with the actual physical world is very different from creating a video game The major difference being the former scales very poorly for generating training data compared to the latter. Genie 2 is not even a video game and has worse fidelity that video games, the upside is it probably scales even better than video games for generating training scenarios. If you want androids in teal life, Genie 2 (or si…

How does turning an image into a game help with robots? Robots don't need to guess what they can't see, they would have sensors to tell them exactly what is there (like a self driving car).

I have no expertise in this area, but my assumption is that this could help for a broader sort of object/world permanence for robots - e.g. if something is no longer visible to the robot's sensors (e.g. behind an obstacle, smoke, etc) then it could use a model based on this type of tech to maintain a short-term estimate of its surroundings even when operating blind.

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#287

Post by aspenmayer »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #49

Hey, DeepMind folks, are you listening? Listen. We believe you: you can conquer any virtual world you put your mind to. Minecraft, Starcraft, Warcraft (?), Atari, anything. You can do it! With the power of RL and Neural Nets. Well done. What you haven't been able to do so far, after many years of trying, is to go from the virtual, to the real. Go from Arcanoid to a robot that can play, I dunno, squash, without dying.…

Does Waymo count?

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#288

Post by digging »

lxgr wrote: post #281
digging wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a bit of a trap. It's not impossible, but by default we should expect it to make games less fun . The better you make this infinite narrative generator, the more complicated the world gets and the less compelling it gets to actually interact with any one story. Stories thrive by setting their own context. They should feel important to the viewer. An open world with infinite stories can't make every sto…

> by default we should expect it to make games less fun. How so? I could totally see generative AI add a ton more variety to crowds, random ambient sentences by NPCs (that are often notoriously just a rotation of a handful of canned lines that get repetitive soon), terrain etc., while still being guided by a human-created high level narrative. Imagine being able to actually talk your way out of a tricky situation in…

> I could totally see generative AI add a ton more variety to crowds, random ambient sentences by NPCs (that are often notoriously just a rotation of a handful of canned lines that get repetitive soon), terrain etc., while still being guided by a human-created high level narrative.

Yes, sure, but that's not what I was responding to. AI adding detail, not infinite quest lines, is possibly a good use case.

> Worst case, you get a soulless, poorly written game with very eloquent but ultimately uninteresting characters. Some games are already that today – minus the realistic dialogue.

Some games, yes... why do we want more of those? Anyway, that's not the worst case. Worst case is incomprehensible dialogue.

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#289

Post by drusepth »

psb217 wrote: post #86
simonw wrote: post #13

Related recent project you can try out yourself (Chrome only) which hallucinates new frames of a Minecraft style game: https://oasis.decart.ai/ That one would reimagine the world any time you look at the sky or ground. Sounds like Genie2 solves that: "Genie 2 is capable of remembering parts of the world that are no longer in view and then rendering them accurately when they become observable again."

RE: "Genie 2 is capable of remembering parts of the world that are no longer in view and then rendering them accurately when they become observable again." -- This claim is almost certainly wildly misleading. This claim is technically true if there's any scenario where their agent, eg, briefly looked down at the ground and then back up at the sky and at least one of the clouds in the sky was the same as before lookin…

Yeah, my best guess is they're probably including the previous N frames as context into generating the next model. This works to preserve continuity over a short amount of time (as you say, briefly looking at the ground and then back up), but only a short period of time.

For these kinds of models to be "playable" by humans (and, I'd argue, most fledgling AI agents), the world state needs to be encoded in the context, not just a visual representation of what the player most recently saw.

Re: Genie 2: A large-scale foundation world model

#290

Post by digging »

raincole wrote: post #199
digging wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a bit of a trap. It's not impossible, but by default we should expect it to make games less fun . The better you make this infinite narrative generator, the more complicated the world gets and the less compelling it gets to actually interact with any one story. Stories thrive by setting their own context. They should feel important to the viewer. An open world with infinite stories can't make every sto…

> I think that's a bit of a trap. It's not impossible, but by default we should expect it to make games less fun. I'd say AAA games have been on track of "less fun" for at least half a decade. So this sounds like a natural next step.

That's... a bad thing
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