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A pro-science, pro-progress, techno-optimistic health textbook from 1929

moreisdifferent.blog

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Re: A pro-science, pro-progress, techno-optimistic health textbook from 1929

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

That was the thing that broke my family. The older generation became way more openly racist after that. I didn't want to accept that it was happening, but I finally gave up denying it. And then Trump came along and all rationality went out the window. Distinguished people with engineering degrees, PE some of them just lost their minds. Wealthy boomers with no care in the world just couldn't handle that (I know not al…

I'm sorry to hear it...

I guess it shouldn't be as surprising as it was. You basically just need to be a non-zero amount of racist/sexist/whatever to think that [category x] shouldn't hold the presidency, given that it's the highest office in the world. Any tiny amount of x-ism will do. Turns out a whole lot of apparently normal people are at least a tiiiny bit racist, and it absolutely broke an entire political party.

Re: A pro-science, pro-progress, techno-optimistic health textbook from 1929

#112
post #2

It's amusing to see the early signs of the anti-vax movement here. The history of that movement is long. Humans are built to thrive in danger, chaos and instability. I think a good chunk of humans go insane in a safe and stable environment and resent the things that allow them to live mundane, safe lives -- technology, medicine and rational thinking. I think there's a certain amount of cherry-picking going on with th…

> humans go insane in a safe and stable environment

Weird that people still get raped and murdered in your "safe and stable" environment. Sometimes the perpetrators don't even see justice and get away with their crimes. How do you account for that?

> a certain amount of cherry-picking

Without a doubt. I don't trust authority because I've been abused by it before. I'm sure you didn't mean to punch down but that's how many of us would rationally perceive it.

Re: A pro-science, pro-progress, techno-optimistic health textbook from 1929

#113
post #49

> Now, imagine the uproar that might ensue from some corners today if a textbook made this sort of direct comparison between two groups, with one group happening to be white and the other black. Some social justice warriors would no doubt raise an outcry. The book would be branded as Eurocentric, racist, and white supremacist, since it doesn’t give equal space to describing the intellectual achievements of the Zulu o…

> as the Snopes monkey trial (1925)

It's the Scopes trial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopes_trial

Re: A pro-science, pro-progress, techno-optimistic health textbook from 1929

#114
post #6
post #2

It's amusing to see the early signs of the anti-vax movement here. The history of that movement is long. Humans are built to thrive in danger, chaos and instability. I think a good chunk of humans go insane in a safe and stable environment and resent the things that allow them to live mundane, safe lives -- technology, medicine and rational thinking. I think there's a certain amount of cherry-picking going on with th…

What is it about vaccines? Lots of anti-vaxxers are fine with other kinds of drugs and use them liberally, even in many cases street drugs. They'll eat fast food, processed food, use household chemicals, do all kinds of other things that expose them to things they don't understand and may not be good for them, but vaccines are just the devil incarnate. The word vaccine seems to provoke a visceral gut reaction among a…

Some reasons I can think of:

- Vaccines are usually injected, injection makes most people uncomfortable. Most of them get over it, but it can be panic inducing for a small number. Among street drug users, injection is usually considered extreme, as in, the thing only true addicts do.

- When you get vaccinated, you are fine, and then you get a few unpleasant side effects. That's the opposite of the usual drugs you take when you are sick and make you feel better.

- Sometimes, vaccination is made mandatory, many people don't like to be told what to do with their bodies, even if there are good reasons for it.

- You never know when a vaccine have saved someone. Someone didn't get sick, but is it because of the vaccine, natural immunity, luck, or simply a lack of exposure, maybe he will get sick eventually, you can't really tell, and you don't really notice when something doesn't happen. However, when a vaccine hurt someone, or failed to prevent the disease it should protect against, that's very noticeable.

- The most successful vaccines are now often considered useless, because the disease they protect against is so rare, why go through the discomfort of the vaccination when it is so unlikely for you to get sick either way? It is a tragedy of the commons, as the reason the diseases is so rare is because of widespread vaccination.

Re: A pro-science, pro-progress, techno-optimistic health textbook from 1929

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

That was the thing that broke my family. The older generation became way more openly racist after that. I didn't want to accept that it was happening, but I finally gave up denying it. And then Trump came along and all rationality went out the window. Distinguished people with engineering degrees, PE some of them just lost their minds. Wealthy boomers with no care in the world just couldn't handle that (I know not al…

I think its as simple as the fact that "we" won the Cold War, and that was the only thing putting any leftward pressure at all on US politics. The psycho right wing didn't materialize in 2008 out of nothing (think about LaRouchism, the "moral majority", Pat Buchanan, and on and on). Yes, Republicans are racist, but so are Democrats and Obama did actually win twice so somebody must have voted for him.

Rather, Obama's election was the just the last time that the New Deal coalition was strong enough to hold together, having deteriorated over the course of the 90s and 2000s because it had no clear purpose. Capital no longer feels any need to throw scraps (like limited NLRB-disciplined union organizing, Social Security, Medicare, consumer surplus) to workers to prevent 1918 happening here, which had been the Democratic Party's entire purpose since FDR. It had seemed increasingly ludicrous that revolution would come to America over the course of midcentury, but the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 brought the farce to light.

In other words, we're still eating the leftovers of anticommunism, the 20th Century's original sin (to mix a metaphor).

Re: A pro-science, pro-progress, techno-optimistic health textbook from 1929

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd agree with this, but it's missing something; why is this the case? From what I know, it's a lot tougher to tease out the cause of this malfunction in our society. Do we have an undereducated populace because of poverty? Lack of school funding? (if so, why do we underfund schools? is it because we don't have the money? greed? is there a concerted effort to suppress an educated populace for political reasons?) Is t…

It's the old dream of the information era. We were going to cure all of the worlds ills by fixing the problem of unequal access to information. Surely people would all perform equally, when given equal opportunity? Not only didn't it work, it made the world a far worse place. I think Occam's razor tells us why: Forty nine percent of people will always be of below average intelligence. Average intelligence currently s…

> Forty nine percent of people will always be of below average intelligence....

> There will always be a bottom half and they will always struggle to understand the world the top half build.

Before you spend too much time patting yourself on the back for being so superior, it's important to keep in mind that "intelligence" isn't all it's cracked up to be. "Intelligent" people do a lot of stupid shit, not listen, get deceived, and deceive themselves, etc. Hell, I've even heard "intelligence" describe as effectively a superior ability for post-hoc rationalization.

When you find yourself trying to understand the world by dividing it into dumbasses and "smart people like me," you should stop and remember to count yourself with the idiots.

Re: A pro-science, pro-progress, techno-optimistic health textbook from 1929

#117
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the old dream of the information era. We were going to cure all of the worlds ills by fixing the problem of unequal access to information. Surely people would all perform equally, when given equal opportunity? Not only didn't it work, it made the world a far worse place. I think Occam's razor tells us why: Forty nine percent of people will always be of below average intelligence. Average intelligence currently s…

> Forty nine percent of people will always be of below average intelligence.... > There will always be a bottom half and they will always struggle to understand the world the top half build. Before you spend too much time patting yourself on the back for being so superior, it's important to keep in mind that "intelligence" isn't all it's cracked up to be. "Intelligent" people do a lot of stupid shit, not listen, get…

> Before you spend too much time patting yourself on the back for being so superior... dividing it into dumbasses and "smart people like me,"

I didn't say anything like that, or even adjacent to it. I didn't imply any judgement at all, other than to acknowledge that we're not all born the same.

That said, tall people will always be better at basketball on average than short people. Raising the average height doesn't really change that, and trying to pretend that if everyone were provided with the same opportunities they would achieve the same outcomes in basketball, or in intellectual pursuits, is dishonest and actively harmful to those born at a disadvantage.

Re: A pro-science, pro-progress, techno-optimistic health textbook from 1929

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RFK Jr. is such a case. Anti-vaxx, but uses something to boost his "jackedness". The dude is jacked for a >70 years old guy. Supposedly it's testosterone. If anyone knows what he uses to look so jacked, please share.

He is vaccinated and all of his children are as well. What specifically of his statements do you consider “anti-vax”?

Not sure if you're "playing dumb" (sometimes people do that on chat boards). Kennedy isn't just "pro-choice on vaccines", he's repeatedly amplified nonscientific views about vaccine safety. For example, as recently as 2023, "Autism comes from vaccines". Then he pivots to a more useful comment, that vaccines are exempt from the normal requirements on drugs to go through full clinical trials.

If you want to claim "autism comes from vaccines" you really have to put up some sort of evidence that supports the claim, and the reality is that there is no reliable evidence for the claim. Also, which vaccine? They use a wide range of technologies? Is it thimerosol... which isn't in any of the major vaccines used in the US today (and was unlikely to be a cause of autism in the first place, and is also still used in many contexts).

Ultimately, what RFK Jr is doing is sowing doubt in established science. I think he's doing it because he thinks the established science is corrupt, but I fail to see how he could possibly correct that while also casting doubt. If he ends up in a public health leadership position, he's going to find very quickly just how poorly his approach to public health works.

Re: A pro-science, pro-progress, techno-optimistic health textbook from 1929

#119
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Forty nine percent of people will always be of below average intelligence.... > There will always be a bottom half and they will always struggle to understand the world the top half build. Before you spend too much time patting yourself on the back for being so superior, it's important to keep in mind that "intelligence" isn't all it's cracked up to be. "Intelligent" people do a lot of stupid shit, not listen, get…

> Before you spend too much time patting yourself on the back for being so superior... dividing it into dumbasses and "smart people like me," I didn't say anything like that, or even adjacent to it. I didn't imply any judgement at all, other than to acknowledge that we're not all born the same. That said, tall people will always be better at basketball on average than short people. Raising the average height doesn't…

> ...and trying to pretend that if everyone were provided with the same opportunities they would achieve the same outcomes in basketball, or in intellectual pursuits, is not only dishonest, it's actively harmful to those born at a disadvantage.

Cultivating an us/them distinction is also actively harmful, more harmful I'd say. But if you can't help yourself, count yourself with them and do your best to avoid condescension.

Re: A pro-science, pro-progress, techno-optimistic health textbook from 1929

#120
post #5

Science has delivered a standard of living to most of the developed world that is greater than that of an Egyptian Pharaoh or a Roman Emperor in numerous ways: health, food, availability of information, ease of travel, physical comfort, etc. Yet visit social media and it's absolutely overflowing with gloom and doom and histrionic political rage and fear bait. Saw a thread recently on Reddit about how many young peopl…

- "...greater than that of an Egyptian Pharaoh or a Roman Emperor..."

I agree it's a thought-provoking comparison. It's a remarkably distorted lens, the one modern humans apply to interpret pre-industrial civilization. Should we glamorize a patrician of ancient Rome? Their lifestyle would be a mediocre, low-prestige one, if faithfully translated into the modern world. The vaunted villas of the aristocrats were farmhouses—go look up farm prices in rural Georgia or Kansas: that is ancient aristocracy. If you owned a herd of goats, that was a measure of wealth and success; we'd interpret the same thing as poverty. A chickenwire fence isn't a signifier of blight, but a delineation of land, and a sigil of an authentic land owner—an elite.

The wealth of a great empire, the trade routes of rare spices and fruits from thousands of leagues away? That's Wal-Mart.

It's a provocative idea! The life of the Roman upper aristocratic class is fully accessible to probably a full majority of contemporary Americans. You could replicate practically every part of it, if you liked*. And you're right that that's no longer a benchmark for self-actualization today; we want—need?—so much more than that.

*(The only large difference, and this is much more than a footnote, is the total abscence of slavery. Iron-age farms needed large numbers of slaves—something with the social impact that they'd label the farm owner, the aristocrat, as a high-status invidual. A human ranking above many others. The industrial revolutions replaced most of this with machines. You don't acquire social status by being superior to a tractor).

(The part where the humans alive today aren't 99% farmers has wildly rewritten the human experience, and we're still far from adjusted to that).

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