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The Tragedy of Stafford Beer (2023)

kevinmunger.substack.com

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Re: The Tragedy of Stafford Beer (2023)

#21

Post by AnimalMuppet »

pmichaud wrote: post #12
gweinberg wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's true though. Isn't the purpose what it's intended to do, not what it actually does?

The point of the aphorism is specifically to dispel the notion that the straightforward definition of “purpose” is correct here.

More specifically, when a system that you naively expect should have the purpose of doing X is found to actually be doing Y, do not automatically assume that it means the system is failing to fulfill its purpose. Instead, look around and see if there are people who are benefitting from it doing Y instead of X, and who are maintaining the state where the system does Y instead of X. That would mean that the true purpose of the system - what it is being deliberately made to do - is Y instead of X.

Re: The Tragedy of Stafford Beer (2023)

#23

Post by 1oooqooq »

libraryofbabel wrote: post #6
asplake wrote: post #4

Re the viable system model, I can recommend Dan Davis, The Unaccountability Machine, which also touches on the Allende story, and Patrick Hoverstadt, The Fractal Organisation. My own VSM-inspired book with a modern complexity lens will be published next year.

Seconding the recommendation of The Unaccountability Machine ; if anyone wants a taster of the book, patio11 did a great episode of his Complex Systems podcast where he interviews the author about it: https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/dan-davies-or...

Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11): Balancing control and chaos: cybernetics, fraud, and modern organizations with Dan Davies

Episode webpage: https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/dan-davies-or...

Media file: https://chrt.fm/track/993DGA/media.transistor.fm/003b6520/a8...

Re: The Tragedy of Stafford Beer (2023)

#24

Post by asplake »

igorkraw wrote: post #8
asplake wrote: post #4

Re the viable system model, I can recommend Dan Davis, The Unaccountability Machine, which also touches on the Allende story, and Patrick Hoverstadt, The Fractal Organisation. My own VSM-inspired book with a modern complexity lens will be published next year.

can one preorder your book?

Find me on LinkedIn (a hop or two from my profile page here) and I’ll give you early access if you’re up for giving some feedback

Re: The Tragedy of Stafford Beer (2023)

#26

Post by pessimizer »

PittleyDunkin wrote: post #16
Ma8ee wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the “correct” word?

...presumably not "purpose"? > that the straightforward definition of “purpose” is correct here.

Sounds like a witty aphorism would be useful in order to express the real meaning he was trying to get at, seeing as the word you're demanding doesn't seem to exist.

Re: The Tragedy of Stafford Beer (2023)

#27

Post by anigbrowl »

PittleyDunkin wrote: post #14
pmichaud wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the aphorism is specifically to dispel the notion that the straightforward definition of “purpose” is correct here.

Why not just use the correct word? It seems weird to drag in an unrelated term just to redefine it. The word "purpose" divorced from intent seems to only have the utility of confusing the reader/audience.

Think of all the broken systems that are left in place rather than fixed.

Re: The Tragedy of Stafford Beer (2023)

#28

Post by Earw0rm »

pmichaud wrote: post #20
PittleyDunkin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just use the correct word? It seems weird to drag in an unrelated term just to redefine it. The word "purpose" divorced from intent seems to only have the utility of confusing the reader/audience.

I am pretty confused about why this conversation is happening, ie why this pithy little saying isn’t self explanatory, but the saying is supposed to be witty commentary. For example, we make a system of speed limits to make roads safer, and we have a law enforcement system. We notice later that the roads are not safer, but that the police are vigorously enforcing the law and collecting the ticket profits from doing s…

It exists in the way it does for multiple reasons in tension with one another.

If it was just trying to generate revenue for the police, it would be better at it.

Ditto, if it were just trying to make roads safer, or if its main objective was full compliance. (Which are related objectives, but not the same thing).

The reality is that political pressures exist which means neither full compliance nor the engineering interventions to make roads much safer are palatable to US voters, but there are pressures in the other direction which demand something must be done. Which is how we end up where we are.

Re: The Tragedy of Stafford Beer (2023)

#29

Post by Earw0rm »

wkyleg wrote: post #17

The Counterfactuals of his ideas are very interesting. Chilean socialism didn't work (just ignoring the coup, it couldn't actually run the economy), but the reasons why it failed, or in other forms could have worked bear consideration. In short, it failed for the same reasons central planning tends to, considering modern understandings of complexity theory and ideas suggested in books such as Seeing Like A State. Jus…

Winners write the history books. There's whether or not a system fails, and there's who it fails for.

Because we can all see a heck of a lot of fail in today's system, but those failing or being failed don't tend to get much of a platform to write about it.

Re: The Tragedy of Stafford Beer (2023)

#30

Post by Ma8ee »

PittleyDunkin wrote: post #16
Ma8ee wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the “correct” word?

...presumably not "purpose"? > that the straightforward definition of “purpose” is correct here.

> ...presumably not "purpose"?

That was already very clear. But you clearly don't have any better suggestion.

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