How to grow professional relationships • Hacker News Board

Re: How to grow professional relationships

#121

Post by lukan » Wed, Dec 04, 2024, 6:04 PM UTC

the_snooze wrote: post #51

lovich wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relationships are like a garden, they require continual, repeated effort to maintain. It doesn’t need to be an onerous amount of effort, but reaching out to people to shoot the shit once even a year is often enough to maintain the relationship for professional networks at least. In software we have an unfortunate amount of people who don’t value social connections at all so we end up with a large tranche of people wh…

>In software we have an unfortunate amount of people who don’t value social connections at all so we end up with a large tranche of people who can’t get past the “but why would I talk to them without a specific reason?” argument and then lament why all of their relationships end up transactional, or even better lament why no one will help them specifically because all their relationships are transactional and they ar…

"Yup, you get a lot of people complaining about the pointlessness of small talk, but the reality is that small talk is social glue."

Only with some people. Trying to do smalltalk with me, will not make me your friend. I simply hate smalltalk. (Talking unimportant things for the sake of talking)

But there are a million of other interesting non buisness things I am willing to talk about at length. I also like to joke around and be silly. But that requires a connection, you won't get with me while talking about the weather. And I know many people are like me, most just adopted to "like" smalltalk, as they think this is the way it has to be.

Re: How to grow professional relationships

#122

Post by BobaFloutist » Wed, Dec 04, 2024, 6:09 PM UTC

blitzar wrote: post #15

mkmk wrote: post #9

On the practical side of things, one important behavior that I see people frequently forget is the importance of following up. This is probably the biggest differentiator between relationships that languish in the early stages, versus those that progress along the author’s continuum. It’s always a bit strange when you only hear from people once every few years, just as they need an intro or career advice or whatever-…

> bit strange when you only hear from people once every few years, just as they need an intro or career advice or whatever This might out me as a psycopath, however, cut to the f'ing chase. If it is a transactional conversation don't insult my intelligence by pretending that it isn't. Obvioulsy this can create a problem as I tend towards "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". If something is within my m…

One of the benefits of playing the game is signaling that you're willing to follow norms even if they don't directly benefit you or make sense to you. Someone refusing to play along with anything that doesn't immediately make sense to them or reasonate with them is a yellow flag, since it shows that they don't value the social contract and aren't willing to humble themselves or make other people the priority.

We're social animals, and when people overtly signal that they're disinterested in the existing paradigm, they're communicating that they're going to be exhausting to interact with, since you're going to have to explain and justify every individual thing you want out of them that they don't already understand, and they'll never just go along with things for the sake of others.

Re: How to grow professional relationships

#123

Post by BobaFloutist » Wed, Dec 04, 2024, 6:14 PM UTC

tejaskumar_ wrote: post #57

polygotdomain wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Psychopath? No. But it's also not insulting their intelligence by having that little catch up. You're asking someone for something that they don't have to do for you. Showing up in their inbox saying "Give me something" might seem to you like you're being concise and to the point, but to the person reading it, there's not much motivation for why they should give you that thing you need. The catchup, as mundane and ob…

This also varies a lot across cultures: in Germany, people actually expect waiters to show up and say "Order?" and sometimes get irritated when they're overly bubbly. In the USA, the opposite is expected.

Right, it's about showing that you respect the social and cultural expectation, not about the specific expectation.

Some people have a very hard time adapting or accepting different cultural expectations, and their world is necessarily narrowed. It always makes sense logically, "Why should I have to play these games to show that I mean well, people should judge me by my more meaningful actions" but another way of looking at it is it's not worth it to them to make the microscopic effort to communicate willingness. If they're not willing to make even that little effort to make communication easier, what else are they unwilling to do?

Re: How to grow professional relationships

#124

Post by Aurornis » Wed, Dec 04, 2024, 6:18 PM UTC

beryilma wrote: post #87

lovich wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relationships are like a garden, they require continual, repeated effort to maintain. It doesn’t need to be an onerous amount of effort, but reaching out to people to shoot the shit once even a year is often enough to maintain the relationship for professional networks at least. In software we have an unfortunate amount of people who don’t value social connections at all so we end up with a large tranche of people wh…

> because all their relationships are transactional and they aren’t offering anything of value Why is a transactional relationship considered bad? And why would one consider a transactional relationship as something not offering value? I don't like small talk, but if I like the person I would try to help them anyway with their transactional request, with the expectation that I might have a similar transactional reque…

Because in transactional relationships the other person only shows up when they need something and then they disappear again until the next time they need something from you.

Transactional relationships are fine if that's the deal up front. I have a lot of transactional relationships with freelancers, contractors, and repair people. I call them up needing something and I'm going to pay them for it. The transaction.

I dislike transactional relationships when they're disguised as personal connections or friendships. People who pretend to want to get to know you, but they really just want to be able to call on you when they need something from you. Often when you call on them for something they're nowhere to be found.

Re: How to grow professional relationships

#125

Post by tejaskumar_ » Wed, Dec 04, 2024, 6:19 PM UTC

BobaFloutist wrote: post #122

blitzar wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> bit strange when you only hear from people once every few years, just as they need an intro or career advice or whatever This might out me as a psycopath, however, cut to the f'ing chase. If it is a transactional conversation don't insult my intelligence by pretending that it isn't. Obvioulsy this can create a problem as I tend towards "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". If something is within my m…

One of the benefits of playing the game is signaling that you're willing to follow norms even if they don't directly benefit you or make sense to you. Someone refusing to play along with anything that doesn't immediately make sense to them or reasonate with them is a yellow flag, since it shows that they don't value the social contract and aren't willing to humble themselves or make other people the priority. We're s…

I know a few people like this and can confirm: they're extremely difficult to be around and take pride in it, feeling great about being "free thinkers" and breaking from the "herd mentality".

This I feel is unfortunately counter to the design of humankind, where we are—as you said—social animals and the only way to change for the better—at a species level—is to change together.

Re: How to grow professional relationships

#126

Post by lovich » Wed, Dec 04, 2024, 6:19 PM UTC

lukan wrote: post #121

the_snooze wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In software we have an unfortunate amount of people who don’t value social connections at all so we end up with a large tranche of people who can’t get past the “but why would I talk to them without a specific reason?” argument and then lament why all of their relationships end up transactional, or even better lament why no one will help them specifically because all their relationships are transactional and they ar…

"Yup, you get a lot of people complaining about the pointlessness of small talk, but the reality is that small talk is social glue." Only with some people. Trying to do smalltalk with me, will not make me your friend. I simply hate smalltalk. (Talking unimportant things for the sake of talking) But there are a million of other interesting non buisness things I am willing to talk about at length. I also like to joke a…

Small talk doesn’t need to be about the weather as the trope goes.

It can be as simple as “hey have you seen {shared colleague} recently?” Or “Hey man, you get into any new hobbies recently?”, or “I’ve been dabbling in {x} tech, have you done anything like it or are could recommend an alternative based on {personal information you got from collaborating with this person}”

The main point in making is that you need to continue in performing these relationship maintaining activities _before_ you need said persons help.

For the extremely oblivious who haven’t researched any game theory but know some comp sci, imagine that relationships with all other humans needed regular mechanical Turk transactions with yourself or they will be identified as high risk groups that shouldn’t be afforded any leeway.

Re: How to grow professional relationships

#127

Post by tejaskumar_ » Wed, Dec 04, 2024, 6:20 PM UTC

BobaFloutist wrote: post #123

tejaskumar_ wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This also varies a lot across cultures: in Germany, people actually expect waiters to show up and say "Order?" and sometimes get irritated when they're overly bubbly. In the USA, the opposite is expected.

Right, it's about showing that you respect the social and cultural expectation, not about the specific expectation. Some people have a very hard time adapting or accepting different cultural expectations, and their world is necessarily narrowed. It always makes sense logically, "Why should I have to play these games to show that I mean well, people should judge me by my more meaningful actions" but another way of loo…

Yeah, strong agree.

Re: How to grow professional relationships

#128

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 04, 2024, 6:20 PM UTC

BobaFloutist wrote: post #122

blitzar wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> bit strange when you only hear from people once every few years, just as they need an intro or career advice or whatever This might out me as a psycopath, however, cut to the f'ing chase. If it is a transactional conversation don't insult my intelligence by pretending that it isn't. Obvioulsy this can create a problem as I tend towards "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". If something is within my m…

One of the benefits of playing the game is signaling that you're willing to follow norms even if they don't directly benefit you or make sense to you. Someone refusing to play along with anything that doesn't immediately make sense to them or reasonate with them is a yellow flag, since it shows that they don't value the social contract and aren't willing to humble themselves or make other people the priority. We're s…

[deleted]

Re: How to grow professional relationships

#129

Post by lovich » Wed, Dec 04, 2024, 6:21 PM UTC

beryilma wrote: post #87

lovich wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relationships are like a garden, they require continual, repeated effort to maintain. It doesn’t need to be an onerous amount of effort, but reaching out to people to shoot the shit once even a year is often enough to maintain the relationship for professional networks at least. In software we have an unfortunate amount of people who don’t value social connections at all so we end up with a large tranche of people wh…

> because all their relationships are transactional and they aren’t offering anything of value Why is a transactional relationship considered bad? And why would one consider a transactional relationship as something not offering value? I don't like small talk, but if I like the person I would try to help them anyway with their transactional request, with the expectation that I might have a similar transactional reque…

You only quoted a portion of my sentence.

Transactional relationships can be fine if both parties are on with it, but you actually need to bring something of value.

If you and I have a fully transactional relationship, then why would I do anything for you if you won’t/can’t do anything for me?

Re: How to grow professional relationships

#130

Post by Aurornis » Wed, Dec 04, 2024, 6:24 PM UTC

impendia wrote: post #89

beryilma wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because all their relationships are transactional and they aren’t offering anything of value Why is a transactional relationship considered bad? And why would one consider a transactional relationship as something not offering value? I don't like small talk, but if I like the person I would try to help them anyway with their transactional request, with the expectation that I might have a similar transactional reque…

I am an academic mathematician, and one thing I love about our culture is that transactional relationships are considered perfectly okay. I can invite a colleague at another university, whom I might consider an old friend even though I haven't spoken to them in ages -- to come give a talk in my department. Very often they'll agree to come; we'll roll out the red carpet for them, and they and I will have a wonderful t…

> I can invite a colleague at another university, whom I might consider an old friend even though I haven't spoken to them in ages -- to come give a talk in my department. Very often they'll agree to come; we'll roll out the red carpet for them, and they and I will have a wonderful time.

You're giving the person an opportunity in this case. You're also rolling out the red carpet to make it good for them.

Usually when people talk about transactional relationships, it means they only call on you when they need something from you. For example, calling someone up every 5 years when you need a referral or you want them to solve a problem for you.