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Gratitude despite the odds

mariakonnikova.substack.com

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Re: Gratitude despite the odds

#11

Post by AnimalMuppet »

MrMcCall wrote: post #10
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while my Trump-loving parents live within seven miles of us, full of COVID and bullshit, going to church but caring not for Jesus' teachings... OK. > dipshits that they are. Um... that doesn't sound like Jesus' teachings either.

You don't know the verse I'm talking about. He speaks of turning children against their parents, my friend. Why would a teacher of love tell us that? Well, when those parents live their lives in complete opposition to what that man gave his life to teach and exemplify. That's when. My mother believes that Trump never cheated on his wives. That's a f_cking dipshit, dude. Stupidity is the result of willful ignorance of…

I know the verse you're talking about. Jesus is talking about the result of his teachings, about what happens when people follow him. Other people will turn away, hate them, and fight them.

But he also said to love your enemies. Those people who turn away and are at enmity with you? Love them anyway.

And it doesn't sound like you do.

(2 Timothy 3 is talking about people in the church. Jesus is talking about people outside. If you want to say that your parents don't belong in church, fine. If discernment tells you to treat them like unbelievers, fine. But the contempt and bitterness doesn't sound right coming from someone quoting Jesus.)

Re: Gratitude despite the odds

#12

Post by MrMcCall »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #11
MrMcCall wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't know the verse I'm talking about. He speaks of turning children against their parents, my friend. Why would a teacher of love tell us that? Well, when those parents live their lives in complete opposition to what that man gave his life to teach and exemplify. That's when. My mother believes that Trump never cheated on his wives. That's a f_cking dipshit, dude. Stupidity is the result of willful ignorance of…

I know the verse you're talking about. Jesus is talking about the result of his teachings, about what happens when people follow him. Other people will turn away, hate them, and fight them. But he also said to love your enemies. Those people who turn away and are at enmity with you? Love them anyway. And it doesn't sound like you do. (2 Timothy 3 is talking about people in the church. Jesus is talking about people ou…

I do love my enemies, but they have to want to hear the truth. It is their human right to be ignorant and ignore God's Wisdom. And I treat them well, though they so loath the truth that they don't call anymore. They are supporting people who actively work against everything Jesus lived for, and those people are making the world much worse for my children, their effing grandchildren!

And you are not reading 2 Timothy 3 correctly. The first five verses are a set of qualities that the loathsome choose to manifest, and it ends with a Command, "Have nothing to do with such people."

That verse is about people, whether in a church or not. It's about people in "terrible times". And the Command is clear. It also includes -- for those whose minds have been clarified by loving God -- the implicit Command to not support their being a leader.

Was Jesus loving his enemies when he threw the moneychangers out of the Temple? He sure was, my friend. My father called it "tough love", and my love for him will save him from the fate of all cruelly ignorant hypocrites, if only he'd listen to the effing truth.

The fact is that my prayers for them carry no weight in the presense of their willful ignorance. Their free will is respected by God just as much as mine, but I don't believe Jesus will save my sins on the Judgement Day; I choose to repent now and become a better person while I live so that I might bring God's light of loving service to all the people I can reach.

Jesus even says, "That which you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me." The fakeass Christians will learn the meaning of those verses on that Day of Days, but, by then, it will be too late. We are judged for what we do here on Earth, while we live.

Re: Gratitude despite the odds

#13

Post by eyeundersand »

ajuc wrote: post #7

Gratitude is nice but the poems that do change governments and people's lives for the better can't only do gratitude. Anger is needed too. Accountability is important. Some people treat the oppressive government as weather. Something you don't have any control over and therefore - no responsibility for. Others treat it as their responsibility. And these people are NOT grateful, when injustice is done in their names.…

Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed both poems but remain partial to Brodsky's- probably a matter of taste and preference.

However, your conclusion (or at least the way I interpreted it) that the essence that drove the writing of Herbert's poem was also responsible for Polish political outcomes and Russia's current state seems a bit far-fetched and reductionist. And Brodsky's poem and quotes in the article do not imply a lack of courage/defiance to me. On the contrary, I read his poem to mean that despite being steadfast in your views, have room for gratitude.

Re: Gratitude despite the odds

#14

Post by cassepipe »

In the first poem, I read

    Broken eggs make me grieve; the omelet, though, makes me vomit
One of my favourite quotes about the Soviet Union is when Panahit Istrati after visiting Stalin's russia replied to the "You don't make omelet without breaking a few eggs" with :

     All right, I can see the broken eggs. Now where's this omelette of yours?
I wonder if it's a reference to this quote

Re: Gratitude despite the odds

#15

Post by AnimalMuppet »

MrMcCall wrote: post #12
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the verse you're talking about. Jesus is talking about the result of his teachings, about what happens when people follow him. Other people will turn away, hate them, and fight them. But he also said to love your enemies. Those people who turn away and are at enmity with you? Love them anyway. And it doesn't sound like you do. (2 Timothy 3 is talking about people in the church. Jesus is talking about people ou…

I do love my enemies, but they have to want to hear the truth. It is their human right to be ignorant and ignore God's Wisdom. And I treat them well, though they so loath the truth that they don't call anymore. They are supporting people who actively work against everything Jesus lived for, and those people are making the world much worse for my children, their effing grandchildren! And you are not reading 2 Timothy…

> The fakeass Christians will learn the meaning of those verses on that Day of Days, but, by then, it will be too late.

Yup.

> We are judged for what we do here on Earth, while we live.

Be very careful with that.

"But we did all this stuff!"

"Depart from me, for I never knew you."

Any real "knowing Him" will change us, and thereby change our actions. But be very careful of depending on the actions.

Yes, there will be a judgment for what we do, but that will be for reward, not for "in or out".

Re: Gratitude despite the odds

#17

Post by ajuc »

regnull wrote: post #16

I'm sure Brodsky is a great poet, but there is also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Independence_of_Ukraine

"In Russia even anarchists are imperialists"

Józef Piłsudski (which also wasn't a great guy, but about Russia he was right)

Re: Gratitude despite the odds

#18

Post by ajuc »

eyeundersand wrote: post #13
ajuc wrote: post #7

Gratitude is nice but the poems that do change governments and people's lives for the better can't only do gratitude. Anger is needed too. Accountability is important. Some people treat the oppressive government as weather. Something you don't have any control over and therefore - no responsibility for. Others treat it as their responsibility. And these people are NOT grateful, when injustice is done in their names.…

Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed both poems but remain partial to Brodsky's- probably a matter of taste and preference. However, your conclusion (or at least the way I interpreted it) that the essence that drove the writing of Herbert's poem was also responsible for Polish political outcomes and Russia's current state seems a bit far-fetched and reductionist. And Brodsky's poem and quotes in the article do not imply a l…

It's a simplification, obviously. But I do think there's a cultural factor in how society approaches the government and suffering in general that strongly influences what kind of government keeps developing in that society.

When you talk about politics with Russians - they always talk about it like it's a force of nature. Like the only choice is fatalistic acceptance.

Re: Gratitude despite the odds

#19

Post by MrMcCall »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #15
MrMcCall wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do love my enemies, but they have to want to hear the truth. It is their human right to be ignorant and ignore God's Wisdom. And I treat them well, though they so loath the truth that they don't call anymore. They are supporting people who actively work against everything Jesus lived for, and those people are making the world much worse for my children, their effing grandchildren! And you are not reading 2 Timothy…

> The fakeass Christians will learn the meaning of those verses on that Day of Days, but, by then, it will be too late. Yup. > We are judged for what we do here on Earth, while we live. Be very careful with that. "But we did all this stuff!" "Depart from me, for I never knew you." Any real "knowing Him" will change us, and thereby change our actions. But be very careful of depending on the actions. Yes, there will be…

Judgement is heaven or hell, reward or punishment. What other outcome can there be?

Knowing Him is to follow God's commands and to love God with all your being and then love your neighbor as yourself. And to seek and find the meaning of "Hallowed be Thy Name", and other mysteries.

Intention is the multiplier for our actions, and that product is what we are judged upon. It's how the well-intentioned act of charity is weighed differently from giving charity in order to tell people, or merely for tax breaks.

Our change comes in degrees, over time with honest self-evaluation and effort, failures with apologies and, eventually, successes, until we see Its Face, and thereafter be "pure in heart", another "servant of all" taking their place as "the greatest among us".

It starts with begging God to take Its Spirit (our Conscience) back into Itself while we live, so that our soul may be cleansed and purified of its vices. That is the meaning of the 1st Beatitude, "Blessed are the poor in Spirit, for theirs shall be the Kingdom of God."

Then we have to slog through and overcome our selfishnesses, to the end, as described by the 5th (IIRC) Beatitude, by learning how to choose selfless service to others over selfishness.

Most people believe Jesus will forgive them on the JD, just because they say some words; many Muslims believe the same but with different words, and many Buddhists believe we just keep getting more chances. No. Those are lies of the deceiver of man, who works on our minds and hearts.

We get one chance on this Earth, for good or ill, and everything about our choices is knowable as to whether it harmonizes with God's teachings. It is up to us to seek that truth, humbly and honestly, and without the misguided corruptions brought by generations of telephone, whereby human beings have been led away from the Truth of Love.

Peace be with you. We love you. I am at your service.

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