‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’ • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#191

Post by danparsonson » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 9:11 PM UTC

ToValueFunfetti wrote: post #183

wutwutwat wrote: post #141

“Take very high resolution scans of brain structure to characterise how someone’s neurons work, recreate it in a digital format then put it in another robotic, virtual or biological body.” This isn't preserving, it's copying. A copy of your brain/personality/you... isn't you... it's a copy. It's a cassette tape playing back the radio you recorded onto it. It's really kind of odd that people talk about brain transplan…

This makes sense if you believe in a non-materialist self, like a soul. That model wouldn't be falsifiable- we can't measure it, so it can have whatever properties are convenient. You could then rule out the possibility that your soul would inhabit the copied 'you' by fiat. Scientifically, though: of course an exact copy of you is you. If you don't believe in souls but still feel like this is not the case, that indic…

So if we copy you into a robot and the copying process leaves you unharmed and awake, are they both you?

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#192

Post by tqi » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 9:14 PM UTC

Leaving aside whether or not I think this is A Good Idea[1], I am fascinated by what other limits people would run up against, if this were possible. Memory, for example. Is it even possible to retain a first person memory for hundreds of years? Is there some upper limit above which you can no longer form new memories? Would it become much harder to motivate yourself, without the pressures of a limited existence. How would it affect our psyche?

[1] I do not.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#193

Post by smeej » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 9:14 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #176

TrainedMonkey wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time you go to sleep your consciousness shuts down. What wakes up is something slightly different due to biological processes. You are not tired, your mood is different, part of cells in your brain got replaced, memories become more stable and maybe linked to other similar memories, etc... This is way more pronounced for people waking up from a coma. Philosophers thought of this for a while, see https://philoso…

Every nanosecond the set of atoms constituting you changes, each of those are a different you.

There's a difference between "I have changed" and "I have been copied." This seems obvious enough to me that I don't question it, but is it not obvious to everyone?

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#194

Post by MattPalmer1086 » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 9:14 PM UTC

jryan49 wrote: post #140

MattPalmer1086 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have been brought back to life after being dead for more than an hour after submergence in very cold water.

But did their "consciousness" continue? We currently have no way of telling.

Exactly whose consciousness would it be, if not theirs?

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#195

Post by smeej » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 9:16 PM UTC

stetrain wrote: post #167

suzzer99 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose you died every night in your sleep and were replaced in the morning with a perfect copy of yourself with all your memories intact. Would you know the difference?

The copy who woke up wouldn't know the difference. There would be thousands of copies that experienced going to bed and then nothing afterwards.

I had a great deal of difficulty going to sleep the night after this first occurred to me.

I only really managed to assuage my fear by realizing there would be an incredible number of dead bodies to deal with if this were happening to everyone every night, and it was extremely unlikely it was only happening to me.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#196

Post by ben_w » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 9:17 PM UTC

wutwutwat wrote: post #141

“Take very high resolution scans of brain structure to characterise how someone’s neurons work, recreate it in a digital format then put it in another robotic, virtual or biological body.” This isn't preserving, it's copying. A copy of your brain/personality/you... isn't you... it's a copy. It's a cassette tape playing back the radio you recorded onto it. It's really kind of odd that people talk about brain transplan…

I view (hypothetical, sufficiently good) brain upload and emulation the way I view git forks: both children are just as equally "the real one" even if only one of them is on the same physical hard drive.

Looking forward from now, both bio-me and digital-fork-me (or indeed bio-fork-me if the upload gets revented) are equally "my future self", even though they would also each be distinct beings in their own rights and not a shared consciousness over many bodies.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#197

Post by BlueTemplar » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 9:17 PM UTC

ToValueFunfetti wrote: post #183

wutwutwat wrote: post #141

“Take very high resolution scans of brain structure to characterise how someone’s neurons work, recreate it in a digital format then put it in another robotic, virtual or biological body.” This isn't preserving, it's copying. A copy of your brain/personality/you... isn't you... it's a copy. It's a cassette tape playing back the radio you recorded onto it. It's really kind of odd that people talk about brain transplan…

This makes sense if you believe in a non-materialist self, like a soul. That model wouldn't be falsifiable- we can't measure it, so it can have whatever properties are convenient. You could then rule out the possibility that your soul would inhabit the copied 'you' by fiat. Scientifically, though: of course an exact copy of you is you. If you don't believe in souls but still feel like this is not the case, that indic…

Scientifically though, an exact copy is likely to not be possible due to the quantum uncertainty principle.

And I'm not sure that's the only issue even for die-hard materialists : think for instance about all the problems that come from multiple exact copies & things like ownership, relationships...

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#198

Post by d-lisp » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 9:18 PM UTC

ToValueFunfetti wrote: post #183

wutwutwat wrote: post #141

“Take very high resolution scans of brain structure to characterise how someone’s neurons work, recreate it in a digital format then put it in another robotic, virtual or biological body.” This isn't preserving, it's copying. A copy of your brain/personality/you... isn't you... it's a copy. It's a cassette tape playing back the radio you recorded onto it. It's really kind of odd that people talk about brain transplan…

This makes sense if you believe in a non-materialist self, like a soul. That model wouldn't be falsifiable- we can't measure it, so it can have whatever properties are convenient. You could then rule out the possibility that your soul would inhabit the copied 'you' by fiat. Scientifically, though: of course an exact copy of you is you. If you don't believe in souls but still feel like this is not the case, that indic…

Another instance of me is a different instance of me than I am, thus it isn't me.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#199

Post by ToValueFunfetti » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 9:18 PM UTC

danparsonson wrote: post #191

ToValueFunfetti wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes sense if you believe in a non-materialist self, like a soul. That model wouldn't be falsifiable- we can't measure it, so it can have whatever properties are convenient. You could then rule out the possibility that your soul would inhabit the copied 'you' by fiat. Scientifically, though: of course an exact copy of you is you. If you don't believe in souls but still feel like this is not the case, that indic…

So if we copy you into a robot and the copying process leaves you unharmed and awake, are they both you?

Yes, they are both me. It is admittedly a weird conclusion, but that doesn't make it false- we did a weird thing and got a weird result. Objectively, there is no case for saying either is not you.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#200

Post by GrantMoyer » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 9:19 PM UTC

TrainedMonkey wrote: post #173

wutwutwat wrote: post #141

“Take very high resolution scans of brain structure to characterise how someone’s neurons work, recreate it in a digital format then put it in another robotic, virtual or biological body.” This isn't preserving, it's copying. A copy of your brain/personality/you... isn't you... it's a copy. It's a cassette tape playing back the radio you recorded onto it. It's really kind of odd that people talk about brain transplan…

Every time you go to sleep your consciousness shuts down. What wakes up is something slightly different due to biological processes. You are not tired, your mood is different, part of cells in your brain got replaced, memories become more stable and maybe linked to other similar memories, etc... This is way more pronounced for people waking up from a coma. Philosophers thought of this for a while, see https://philoso…

Reminds me of Filmcow: https://www.youtube.com/embed/ur9jLK_6EcY?start=70&end=100