‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’ • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#101

Post by bambax » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 7:50 PM UTC

ericmcer wrote: post #10

JohnFen wrote: post #2

I think that immortality would be a disaster, personally. That we die is a critically important aspect of life. I'd prefer that we work on ways to make the death process less traumatic.

Why? We have already decimated any semblance of natural selection so death is no longer a necessity from an evolutionary standpoint. Maybe immortal humans would be more beneficent because they wouldn't be scrambling to get ahead in their short time here. If I didn't only have 30-40ish productive years to achieve whatever I will in this life it would be much easier to donate money or time to charitable pursuits.

Are you serious? Have you been around old rich people? Do you find them generous? People grow more selfish with age, because they care less and less.

The only thing to gain by abolishing biological death is perpetual civil war.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#102

Post by hinkley » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 7:50 PM UTC

One of the absolute best short movies I've ever seen is The World of Tomorrow.

The whole thing is cute, but every time I read about brains in boxes I can't help but think of this scene about grandpa's consciousness being uploaded into a cube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PUIxEWmsvI&t=88s

    We are also able to download correspondence from him. [...] I will read one of his letters to you now.

    "Oh. Oh God. Oh God. Oh my God. Oh Holy Mother of God. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh God."

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#103

Post by vundercind » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 7:52 PM UTC

idatum wrote: post #95

Do memories and/or brain functionality rely on volatile storage? So if you die, that storage is gone. How our brain works may rely on more than the structure of the brain. When you are brought back (booted?), things may not work the same.

From what I've seen of research on apparently-dispersed storage of memories in worms, I'd not be at all surprised to find that a human brain separated from a body has (assuming we could "boot it up" in that state, as you put it) lost a lot of memories or functionality beyond the obvious, even assuming we could perfectly preserve everything present in the brain per se.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#104

Post by kajumix » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 7:53 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #2

I think that immortality would be a disaster, personally. That we die is a critically important aspect of life. I'd prefer that we work on ways to make the death process less traumatic.

When I look back on my 45 years life, there are spans which feel like a different life altogether. I thought differently, and made choices that I won't make today. I'd say "in my former life" as if that life ended and a new one began. I suspect youthful immortality would be a sequence of many deaths and rebirths. If you had the neuroplasticity of a 25 year old and the experience and wisdom of a 50 year old, I imagine it won't get boring, and perhaps new ideas and modes of living won't require a generation to die, and a new one to be born.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#105

Post by hinkley » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 7:56 PM UTC

NickM wrote: post #11

I used to buy into this kind of stuff, but I've become more and more skeptical of the idea that you would still be yourself if your brain could be preserved/emulated/transplanted/whatever. Our nervous system extends into our bodies. We feel emotions in our bodies. People with certain kinds of brain damage that prevents them from feeling emotions normally also experience trouble making rational decisions. More recent…

Why would you want to go on in a world that has either left you behind or keeps making the same mistakes over and over in a cycle and won't listen to you because you're too old to understand?

And conversely, I think Kim Stanley Robinson puts it best in the Mars trilogy. Scientific progress often has to wait for the old guard to die so new ideas can be tried. Sometimes there are actually new things and they need to be allowed to cook.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#106

Post by hinkley » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 8:00 PM UTC

amyjess wrote: post #62

Ultimately, I am going to quote one of my favorite writers [0] and say that I am not afraid of a life that ends. I don't want to be a brain in a jar. Or in a computer either. I enjoy experiencing physical sensations and interacting with the world in meatspace. And if I can't enjoy either, then just let me die. And I apply this to not just brain preservation, but any attempt to artificially prolong the quantity of my…

I suspect part of extending human life much beyond 120 years is going to be finding ways to delay physical adulthood, so that proportionally you still have the same time to learn and grow, and those growth hormones are still kicking around repairing things for longer. Because the quality of life 100 years after your organs have stopped repairing themselves is not going to be that great, but if you could reduce that to 80-90 years then maybe.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#107

Post by hinkley » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 8:03 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #65

I love how people have wet dreams about living forever by uploading their mind to a computer but put absolutely 0 fucking effort actually increasing their health/life span in real life, and/or waste their days/week/years doing stuff they hate to "enjoy life" later (when their body is already half way rotten). As long as it's sci fi and they have 0 effort to provide they'll suck every single drop of hope but as soon a…

There's no contradiction here. You're talking about people who have already detached the concept of self from their physical body. They think of 'me' as their brain, so why maintain the body they're 'trapped' in.

People who try to solve all their problems with intellect tend to suffer from this. And many of them never learned that being in shape makes you feel a whole lot better.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#108

Post by Freebytes » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 8:06 PM UTC

NickM wrote: post #11

I used to buy into this kind of stuff, but I've become more and more skeptical of the idea that you would still be yourself if your brain could be preserved/emulated/transplanted/whatever. Our nervous system extends into our bodies. We feel emotions in our bodies. People with certain kinds of brain damage that prevents them from feeling emotions normally also experience trouble making rational decisions. More recent…

I consider that I have likely died more than twice in my lifetime already. And before this body gives up, I will have already died more times. Must simply enjoy the present and give gifts to my future self.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#109

Post by hinkley » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 8:06 PM UTC

krferriter wrote: post #28

Waking up in a state of confusion looking down at my new body after my own death. "What is this, some kind of altered carbon?"

I'm kinda surprised everyone in that show doesn't walk around with full neck armor to protect their stacks. Metal gorgets should be all the rage in this universe.

Re: ‘With brain preservation, nobody has to die’

#110

Post by belfalas » Tue, Dec 03, 2024, 8:06 PM UTC

etrautmann wrote: post #61

NickM wrote: post #11

I used to buy into this kind of stuff, but I've become more and more skeptical of the idea that you would still be yourself if your brain could be preserved/emulated/transplanted/whatever. Our nervous system extends into our bodies. We feel emotions in our bodies. People with certain kinds of brain damage that prevents them from feeling emotions normally also experience trouble making rational decisions. More recent…

As a neuroscientist working on brain computer interfaces, it's painfully clear to me that we are absolutely nowhere close to understanding the full complexity of the human brain in a manner required to simulate or reboot someone's consciousness. It's not even clear yet what level of abstraction is required. Do we need to map all of the synapses to get a connection graph, or do we need to map all synapses plus the syn…

Keying off your comment - in the field of neuroscience, is consciousness viewed as a kind of simulation?

(I'm just a programmer so it's fascinating to me to consider how actual brain scientists model consciousness in their work.)