How much carbon dioxide is released into the atmosphere for a single rocket launch? How much labor and natural resources does it cost? I think it's extremely selfish to expect others to expend so much energy and time to carry your remains so far away, when you wouldn't know the difference. I also think seeing night lights from a city on the moon would be pretty cool.
> How much carbon dioxide is released into the atmosphere for a single rocket launch? Approximately equivalent to a trans-pacific jet flight.
Bury me on the moon, preferably on the far side
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Re: Bury me on the moon, preferably on the far side
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
> How much carbon dioxide is released into the atmosphere for a single rocket launch? Approximately equivalent to a trans-pacific jet flight.
The interesting thing about this is that rockets can easily be net negative in terms of CO2 stuff. One way is in the fuel itself. For instance the Space Shuttle main engine was powered by combustion generated from liquid hydrogen + liquid oxygen - the exhaust was literally water vapor. A second interesting nuance is that any fuel burnt outside of Earth's atmosphere is a carbon reduction, so a hypothetical rocket that…
Also wouldn't the carbon dioxide burned outside of the atmosphere eventually comes back down? The nozzle is usually pointed towards the Earth, so unless the exhaust is on an escape trajectory it wouldn't be lost.
Re: Bury me on the moon, preferably on the far side
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it's a dead rock. There is no environment to pollute I used to share this view until I read Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars . There is aesthetic value to preserving Mars in its pristine form, within reason, if only so future generations can enjoy it. That doesn't mean full space NIMBY, as this article suggets. But it does argue against being cavalier about an alien landscape simply because it's lifeless.
Would future generations enjoy pristine Mars or colonized Mars more? In the trilogy, Mars does get converted to a blue planet people can live out in the open on just like Earth. Wouldn't that be more enjoyable? Seems like it is for most people in the book. The pristine Mars defenders are considered radicals who lose out. The only constant in life is change. The future will be different. If Mars is worth colonizing, w…
The pristine Mars everywhere forever advocates are considered radicals and lose out. If I remember correctly, Mars is terraformed in a way that leaves parts of it as unchanged as possible, e.g. the extra-atmospheric peaks of Olympus Mons.
Re: Bury me on the moon, preferably on the far side
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42300388 Last paragraph mainly.
I may be missing something, but I see zero overlap between space exploration and environmental concerns. They tap into completely different parts of our psyches. The first, exploration, is inherently optimistic. The second, preservation, is inherently risk averse. While there are idiots claiming we'll solve our climate troubles with space, the reality is they're orthogonal pursuits.
You're right that these pursuits are entirely orthogonal. Unfortunately, whether or not space exploration is in the picture, we are far less enthusiastic about doing what actually matters to fix the environment and whatnot. It's just that I myself only realized this imbalance from seeing Walter Bright's blatant positivity on space exploration. I will maintain that, not only is the negative pursuit a nightmare to work on by itself, but introducing the positive pursuit will be a psychological distraction, like how some people scoff at negative effects of capitalism and focus on the positives. Because we love feel-good stories and gravitate to them.
Re: Bury me on the moon, preferably on the far side
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
I may be missing something, but I see zero overlap between space exploration and environmental concerns. They tap into completely different parts of our psyches. The first, exploration, is inherently optimistic. The second, preservation, is inherently risk averse. While there are idiots claiming we'll solve our climate troubles with space, the reality is they're orthogonal pursuits.
Indeed. I lost the plot from my original comment, so I'll try to refine it here. I had brought up pollution and exploitation, a broad survey of negative features of our civilization because I think people don't weigh positive and negative things remotely fairly. All things have a social/ideal (as in ideas) backing. Space exploration is positive and hopeful; throw money at it and there are plenty of people who would b…
You can’t distract someone who isn’t in the room. I’ll admit to tuning out a lot of climate catastrophism because it just doesn’t hold my attention. I know the outlines of the situation; it doesn’t strike me as productive to obsess over it. (Or more accurately, it isn’t fun.)
> we love feel-good stories and gravitate to them
There are people who like feel-good stories and people who like catastrophism. I’m arguing you’re never competing for one against the other.
It isn’t a coïncidence that the feel-good sectors of the climate movement, EVs and solar energy, have so much overlap with space start-ups.
Re: Bury me on the moon, preferably on the far side
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Air pollution accounted for 8.1 million deaths globally in 2021 [0] > In 2019, air pollution caused about 6.7 million deaths. Of these, almost 85% are attributable to noncommunicable diseases (NCDs), including ischemic heart disease, stroke, lung cancer, asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), and diabetes. This makes air pollution the second leading cause of NCDs globally after tobacco. [1] [0] https…
my point was that all of the activities that we humans engage in are the activities that create the pollution; but they are also the activities that extend our life expectancies. You can't separate them. Claiming that pollution is killing without point out the benefits of what is creating the pollution is lying. Industrialization created the world we all enjoy, the largest population of humans enjoying their lives at…
It is indeed true that we have unprecedented life quality among more people than ever. It is also very true that industrialization has played a gigantic part in that. However, from one line of history does not come them all. We do not know that this exact path of industrialization was or continues to be necessary. If, in an alternate history, there were less humans with very high quality of life for longer and then they discovered less polluting forms of industry to reach this point, were they worse off? Are you saying we are already minimizing pollution to the level necessary for progress, or quickly working on it? If you're trying to justify the current level of pollution with the current level of progress, you have a lot of explaining to do. Cutting down plastic bag usage alone would probably be high impact for reducing pollution/environmental harm and low impact on impeding progress.
Re: Bury me on the moon, preferably on the far side
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
> When we build a colony on the Moon, we aren't taking land from Moon people I think the key distinction in this discussion is your view that the Moon belongs to no people yet, versus the opposing view established by the Outer Space Treaty that the Moon belongs to all people.
> the Moon belongs to no people yet, versus the opposing view established by the Outer Space Treaty that the Moon belongs to all people You're describing the Moon Treaty, which was never ratified [1]. It would have made the Moon the common heritage of all manking [2]. The Outer Space Treaty is far less restrictive [3]. And even if the Moon Treaty were in effect, it still wouldn't make lunar colonisation an assertion…
"The exploration and use of outer space shall be carried out for the benefit and in the interests of all countries and shall be the province of all mankind."
Outer space meaning the universe beyond Earth's atmosphere, and Province of all mankind meaning an area of special knowledge, interest, or responsibility belonging to all mankind. Perhaps others don't read it this way, but this is the meaning of my comment.
Re: Bury me on the moon, preferably on the far side
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
> When we build a colony on the Moon, we aren't taking land from Moon people I think the key distinction in this discussion is your view that the Moon belongs to no people yet, versus the opposing view established by the Outer Space Treaty that the Moon belongs to all people.
Belonging to all people means the Tragedy of the Commons.
Re: Bury me on the moon, preferably on the far side
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't hate humanity but I'm firmly on the side that says the lit side of the moon should be left untouched from here on out. The night sky belongs to all of Earth's inhabitants. None of us has any right to decorate the moon anymore than a technocrat with the means could claim the right to make all the oceans glow. If we do allow building on the lit lunar surface though, props to the first telescope company to build…
> I'm firmly on the side that says the lit side of the moon should be left untouched from here on out I'm firmly opposed to your proposal. Having lit cities on the moon does not impinge in any way life on earth. Are you also firmly opposed to airplanes?
Do you propose any one group can have the right to put whatever they want into the sky of every human on Earth?
> does not impinge in any way life on earth
A good portion of the life on Earth looks up at the Moon, often with magnification. Treating it like a nature preserve would be a gift to all posterity and they would praise us for it. Treating it like another resource to harveest will ultimately mean covering it in colonies and forever changing the face of an astral body that has remained virtually untouched for all of our species' history. Presuming to utilize it for industry or colonization is so short sighted a view I can't believe anyone harbors the thought.