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Ask HN: How can I grow as an engineer without good seniors to learn from?

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Re: Ask HN: How can I grow as an engineer without good seniors to learn from?

#291

Post by Joel_Mckay »

hinkley wrote: post #290
Joel_Mckay wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't discuss client specific internals, but some equipment takes 3 days to bring up online. People are fragile, maintenance/inspections need done, and team communication is more important than any lock with a post-it note. People mess up, and other people bear the consequences. The "figure it out as we go crowd" is not welcome... =3

I'm just learning about lockout systems from convos on the internet, but the idea is you have a device that locks the equipment in shutdown mode. Apparently fairly common in power generation. The hasp (the part the shackle goes into) has multiple holes, and everyone doing maintenance has their own lock, which they all put on while they're in the danger zone. You're supposed to remove your lock when you finish up, but…

In general, one will often be able to lock a panel for wiring changes, but many people eventually face "working live"/EEWP in a career.

Study the old engineers that still have all their body parts, and never feel pressured to do something silly.

Best of luck, =3

Re: Ask HN: How can I grow as an engineer without good seniors to learn from?

#292

Post by azemetre »

tharkun__ wrote: post #287
azemetre wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning styles is something that's actually not supported by science at all and a common myth that is damaging. https://onlineteaching.umich.edu/articles/the-myth-of-learni... There's a good back about how to learn effectively written by cognitive scientists: Make It Stick: The Science of Successful Learning by Henry L. Roediger III, Mark A. McDaniel, and Peter C. Brown Definitely worth a read, even reading a summar…

OMG, that's great to see. Finally scientific proof that I was right when I refused to do "highlighting" like they were trying to make us in school and university.

Yeah, the book is quite interesting especially in the context of advice you see online regarding learning about programming. It seems the simplest advice would be to just read the documentation then make things, when you struggle refer back to the documentation. Whereas most advice you read on social media is to pay for a course.

Throughout the book you keep hearing stories about how application and spacing are critical for reinforcing concepts.

I don't have it in front of me but I remember they presented one study that students who took a practice exam did better than those that just read the material and took the exam.

In the book they mention often that rereading material isn't useful or an effective way to learn.

Re: Ask HN: How can I grow as an engineer without good seniors to learn from?

#293

Post by tharkun__ »

azemetre wrote: post #292
tharkun__ wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OMG, that's great to see. Finally scientific proof that I was right when I refused to do "highlighting" like they were trying to make us in school and university.

Yeah, the book is quite interesting especially in the context of advice you see online regarding learning about programming. It seems the simplest advice would be to just read the documentation then make things, when you struggle refer back to the documentation. Whereas most advice you read on social media is to pay for a course. Throughout the book you keep hearing stories about how application and spacing are criti…

    Whereas most advice you read on social media is to pay for a course.
Sounds like the ads of our time. I.e. influencers paid to do promotions. Not unlike the ads for certifications and courses before really. Certifications are BS. Someone with zero experience but "certs" is not gonna win any favours with me in an interview. Show you can do the job. A university degree is somewhere in between as there are many ways to get one. The BS - cert kind of - way and the "real" way.

    It seems the simplest advice would be to just read the documentation then make things, when you struggle refer back to the documentation.
This has always been how I have learned. Learning by doing. Even in university. Just practice basically. Do whatever you need to learn or remember over and over with some time in between. Just like any other muscle exercise: reps!

Spaced "repetition is the mother of learning" is what my parents always told me. Minus the "spaced" part.

And yes, that's how we learned for most (good) university courses. We had "labs" every week. It was non-mandatory and while some profs would give you credits towards the final grade if you took part in them, the idea really was to get you to practice things over and over with some time in between. By the time you were learning for the final exam, it was already at least the second or third repetition of applying the knowledge.

Reading docs (or the book / your lecture notes) when trying to apply the knowledge is OK. Just reading it multiple times but not actually trying to use it really doesn't do anything in my experience. I passed my initial "learn a programming language" course at university without ever going to a lecture past the first two for example. I was using said language to actually build something that required what I knew was gonna be the main part of the exam (boolean logic - duh - and concurrency - way more fun) for building some actually useful tool for a friend.

Re: Ask HN: How can I grow as an engineer without good seniors to learn from?

#294

Post by dvektor »

I can relate quite a bit to your situation, as a self taught developer with years of experience programming, but I was in a situation where I was able to spend on avg. 14 hours a day for ~3 years programming without a single day off, trying to up-skill myself as much as I possibly could. Fortunately I already had much of the context and foreknowledge of what I needed to be learning, so all that time was spent building; instead of trying to learn what to build, or how.

After some time, I was given an opportunity to join a tech startup, and excelled. I wrote the vast majority of their code bases, I manage virtually all of their ops/infrastructure/deployments. I mentor our junior developers, I conduct all our technical interviews, and I make our implementation/design decisions, even tho we do employ other senior developers with many more years of experience than I have.

Many would be skeptical of someone with so little experience on paper being in such a position, and it honestly I believe it will be a very uphill battle you will have to fight when you are given such a high position, when it's time to move companies. To be quite honest I didn't even want the title I was given officially, because I didn't feel it was appropriate from an industry standard. However there is no doubt that it applies if you read the relevant job description.

As to your question specifically, seek out and spend time with more experienced engineers whenever possible. I am very lucky to have friends with many, many years of industry experience working for large tech companies, who I have been lucky enough to be able to work on side projects with, as well as having been able to contribute to open source, as well as building my own projects and taking on contract jobs on the side where I have solo developed a fairly substantial project as well. I am very grateful for these friends and I have learned very much from being able to build with them.

Build as much as you possibly can, work on projects that are far outside the scope of what you do for work, and take on challenges you otherwise wouldn't feel ready for. Try to befriend experienced devs and seek to be a part of communities where experienced engineers are found. There is no substitute for the hours of writing code, but surrounding yourself with others who's observations and code you will be able to learn and benefit from is a good start.

Re: Ask HN: How can I grow as an engineer without good seniors to learn from?

#296

Post by maxmynter95 »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #215
MichaelRazum wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Is this really the case? I mean some of the popular open source project are kind of mature. So you would get some feedback, regarding some specifics of the frameworks. For sure you would learn a bit. On the other hand they are kind of "done" software, so you would not really learn how to build something new from scratch. Not sure about the other points.

You learn so much by looking at how mature succesful software looks under the hood, which you will have to do as a condition for writing a good PR. But, sure, don't send PR's for things that don't matter just to send PR's, that's just annoying. But if you send a 3-line PR to fix a bug, that required 15 hours of study of the code to diagnose and figure out the right 3-lines, that is HUGELY educational. Working on imma…

+1 on the "reading other high quality code" part to improve your craft.

Getting your own work critiqued is unmatched, but reading what others did is the next best thing.

Re: Ask HN: How can I grow as an engineer without good seniors to learn from?

#297

Post by GreenWatermelon »

dahdum wrote: post #204

> But even then, I'm afraid I am not producing the software to the highest standards of the industry Realistically, you’re not, but does that matter at all to the company? I’ve had your role in a small company, the job wasn’t really about the tech. Unless there is a dedicated product manager, that is your role now too, and it’s one to take seriously. You have enviable freedom, do not waste it. Be straight with your b…

Lmaoo 6he highest standards of the industry are vapor due to being near the Earth's molten core.

In this era "High quality" is an increasingly rarer exception. This industry is stuck in the "rush to market' phase even for decade+ projects.

The industry is so young it's still filled with pretenders below-mediocre developers. The fact you're thinking about quality and learning probably puts you on the top 10% of developers in the entire World.

Re: Ask HN: How can I grow as an engineer without good seniors to learn from?

#298

Post by lolive »

May be a meetup event near you can be the option to meet and discuss the reality of methods, patterns and tools. If you stay alone, the problem really comes down to filtering all the bullshit content the Web is generating every day. [yes, LinkedIn, I'm looking at you!]

Re: Ask HN: How can I grow as an engineer without good seniors to learn from?

#299

Post by busterarm »

samiv wrote: post #224
busterarm wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"leadership" is arguably the most important engineering skill. Every engineering role I've ever had required leading people or organizations to make the correct technical choices.

You're conflating manipulating with engineering. Communicating with people can be part of a job but it isn't engineering. engineering noun the art or science of making practical application of the knowledge of pure sciences, as physics or chemistry, as in the construction of engines, bridges, buildings, mines, ships, and chemical plants. Digital Technology. the art or process of designing and programming computer sys…

There isn't one correct way to do anything.

Engineering is about making tradeoffs and then you're entirely in the realm of communication. You can pretend otherwise but you'll be wrong and all of the decisions will be made without or around you.

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