Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

121gigawatts.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 205 posts

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#181

Post by natmaka »

thrance wrote: post #163
Propelloni wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nuclear is still a bit cheaper per Watt LCOE [1] of nuclear power in Europe and the USA is roughly thrice that of solar or wind [2]. In China it is about even. If you do not trust the Deutsche Bank report, the World Nuclear Association comes to roughly the same conclusion but assumes a lower discount, thus making nuclear power more attractive. [3] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levelized_cost_of_electricity [2]…

In France, the most recent report [1] by the Cour des comptes , our official accounting organ, still gives nuclear power as slightly cheaper than solar and wind. I trust your data, but the situation here is different, most reactors are already built, and "only" need maintenance and fuel replacement. I still stand by what I said in my previous comment about emissions per watts, etc. [1] https://www.ccomptes.fr/sites/d…

This report is about the cost of production of AMORTIZED nuclear plants (moreover the real cost of France's nuclear fleet of reactor, including public money is a matter of debate). Comparing it to the total cost of new renewable is meaningless.

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#182

Post by pyrale »

natmaka wrote: post #179
pyrale wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so catching up to a global leader with lots of nuclear despite phasing out their own nuclear. No catching up happened, because France also improved in the meantime, despite building no new plant in the 2007-2022 interval. And that's the issue with this measurement: it measures plenty of parasitic information. For instance, GDP growth between the 90's and now explains a large part of what you're highlighting. Here's…

> France also improved in the meantime, despite building no new plant in the 2007-2022 interval Thanks to renewables: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewa...

Renewables didn't move the needle since french electricity was already clean. Your graph shows that fossil didn't move over the time period.

The difference has been cleaner energy use (e.g. better car motors) and cleaner production on non-electric energy.

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#183

Post by gharlan »

hokkos wrote: post #174
gharlan wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really cool! What specific data source(s) are used in the wind turbine charge factors view?

ECMWF ERA5 meteo data, and PyPSA/atlite to convert it to charge factor, with OSM data for the turbine location.

Thanks!

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#184

Post by moooo99 »

natmaka wrote: post #176
preisschild wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, France could invest a lot more into nuclear-heat usage directly (e.g. for district heating or providing process heat to factories) without needing to convert it into Electricity first.

France did invest into a new nuclear powerplant, and the result isn't enticing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamanville_Nuclear_Power_Plan...

That wasn‘t what was mentioned, it was specifically mentioned they should use more nuclear to heat, I.e. use exceeds heat for district heating for example.

This is fairly common for coal and gas power plants, but as far as I know, not really used with nuclear power plants.

As far as I know, the French nuclear power plants aren’t exactly in close proximity to any major city, making district heating most likely not economically viable

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#185

Post by GrzegorzWidla »

himinlomax wrote: post #121
barbazoo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if that still holds true nowadays with renewable energy and storage having got cheaper and cheaper.

You'd need to be able to store WEEKS of electricity to make wind+solar work. Currently, battery grid-scale storage stores seconds. You'd need an increase of several orders of magnitude for this to work. Even if manufacturing costs were magically 0, the amount of lithium, copper and other materials required would be unsustainable. It's not going to happen.

Do you realise that German government, European Union and independent third parties have all published scientific estimates as to how much storage is needed and no, it’s not for weeks?

You don’t use lithium for long term energy storage. You just have very shallow understanding of issues at hand.

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#186

Post by insane_dreamer »

dasKrokodil wrote: post #123
insane_dreamer wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if it wasn't for France having primarily used nuclear power decades ago, Europe as a whole would be in a much much worse state when it comes to CO2 emissions. That makes it abundantly clear that nuclear needs to be a part of the mix when it comes to non-emission generating energy production.

Let's see... nuclear power is super expensive, relies on finite uranium resources and there is no safe solution to store the waste. Do we really want to rely on this?

> super expensive

cheaper than dealing with climate change

> finite uranium resources

we're not going to run out anytime soon, unlike oil

> no safe solution to store the waste

yes, there are

It's not the perfect solution for sure. But solar/wind/water isn't going to get us to where we need to be fast enough.

One day we'll figure our fusion and can shut down all our fission plants.

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#187

Post by natmaka »

pyrale wrote: post #182
natmaka wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> France also improved in the meantime, despite building no new plant in the 2007-2022 interval Thanks to renewables: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewa...

Renewables didn't move the needle since french electricity was already clean. Your graph shows that fossil didn't move over the time period. The difference has been cleaner energy use (e.g. better car motors) and cleaner production on non-electric energy.

Renewables did compensate nuclear's underproduction: without them France would have burnt more fossil fuels.

Moreover ~60% of France's final energy is obtained by burning fossil fuels => France must electrify (replace fossil fuel by electricity) => produce more gridpower => deploy new gridpower-producing equipment and such heavy industry thingies cannot be built overnight.

Upon an economic viewpoint electrifying is facilitated by the sheer availability of low-priced electricity.

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#188

Post by natmaka »

moooo99 wrote: post #184
natmaka wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France did invest into a new nuclear powerplant, and the result isn't enticing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamanville_Nuclear_Power_Plan...

That wasn‘t what was mentioned, it was specifically mentioned they should use more nuclear to heat, I.e. use exceeds heat for district heating for example. This is fairly common for coal and gas power plants, but as far as I know, not really used with nuclear power plants. As far as I know, the French nuclear power plants aren’t exactly in close proximity to any major city, making district heating most likely not eco…

It implies an adequate design, adapting (retrofit) an existing nuclear plant to such co-generation is very difficult.

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#189

Post by irrational »

xandrius wrote: post #104
irrational wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have kids that are in their late 20s. They never watch older movies unless someone forces them to. There is so much new media coming out that they don’t feel the need to watch older movies, even if everyone is telling them it is very good.

Couldn't you put that media on when they were kids? I know movie nights are not a thing every family does but I'd imagine having one day modern movie, one day oldish from 80-90a, another day a classic from the 40s, etc. Wouldn't that have worked if you started from when they were young? I'm just thinking as that is my plan for when/it I have kids: mix older media with new one and just enjoy it with them. If it is tru…

I could have, but honestly I watch very little media and the few times I sit down to watch a movie, it has been something new that catches my eye.

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#190

Post by pyrale »

natmaka wrote: post #187
pyrale wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Renewables didn't move the needle since french electricity was already clean. Your graph shows that fossil didn't move over the time period. The difference has been cleaner energy use (e.g. better car motors) and cleaner production on non-electric energy.

Renewables did compensate nuclear's underproduction: without them France would have burnt more fossil fuels. Moreover ~60% of France's final energy is obtained by burning fossil fuels => France must electrify (replace fossil fuel by electricity) => produce more gridpower => deploy new gridpower-producing equipment and such heavy industry thingies cannot be built overnight. Upon an economic viewpoint electrifying is f…

It feels like you've got your answer and are looking for a way to find the fit problem.

> Renewables did compensate nuclear's underproduction

The underproduction episode in 2022 was mostly handled thanks to imports and consumer sobriety.

> Moreover ~60% of France's final energy is obtained by burning fossil fuels

Yeah, that's my point. France would be better served by electrifying its non-electric energy usages rather than trying to replace one clean production by another.

> => deploy new gridpower-producing equipment and such heavy industry thingies cannot be built overnight.

France has a healthy margin before needing to rush production, with electricity usage going down for two decades, and a significant share of its power being exported currently.

Post reply on HN