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Show HN: Open-source private home security camera system (end-to-end encryption)

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Re: Show HN: Open-source private home security camera system (end-to-end encryption)

#161

Post by SahAssar »

arrdalan wrote: post #154
SahAssar wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd probably change that in your readme then, this is usually called something like encrypted in-flight or transport encryption. End-to-end encryption is a pretty specific term and clearly not what is done here. Even if you use protocols designed for end-to-end encryption that does not matter if the protocols talk with an intermediary (the hub) that decrypts the traffic. For example, if signal still used the signal p…

The end-to-end encryption part is clear IMO: it's between the hub and the app, both of which are trusted. This is different from an untrusted server decrypting the messages.

The point of end-to-end encryption to me is that I don't need to have a trusted intermediary (in this case the hub).

Anyway, either way it's probably good to include something about how the traffic between the camera and the hub is completely plaintext and unencrypted and includes the password to the camera (unless I'm missing something), so even in your model it's not just the hub that is an additional point that needs to be trusted, it's also the whole network that they are on. That's probably at least a router and might include many other devices, sometimes quite untrusted.

Since some cameras support adding TLS/HTTPS it would be good to add support for that by not hardcoding http for the onvif endpoints. I think FFMPEG supports rtsp over tls out of the box.

Re: Show HN: Open-source private home security camera system (end-to-end encryption)

#162

Post by nothrabannosir »

ranger_danger wrote: post #4
KetoManx64 wrote: post #2

Wow!! Very cool project. The reasons you mentioned above are the exact reason that I have not setup security cameras at my house, but this makes me reconsider. Combined with the OSS firmware: https://github.com/openmiko/openmiko this would make a killer combo for privacy conscious individuals.

The best time to have security cameras is yesterday. Same for a dash cam. Please protect yourself and your loved ones.

Against what does a security camera protect you? I understand for a business that can afford a human being monitoring the feed, it offers protection by reducing response time to potential threats. But for individuals? I thought it was about justice, not protection.

Or did you mean as a deterrent? Which is fair enough (although a fake camera would achieve the same)

Re: Show HN: Open-source private home security camera system (end-to-end encryption)

#163

Post by ranger_danger »

nothrabannosir wrote: post #162
ranger_danger wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best time to have security cameras is yesterday. Same for a dash cam. Please protect yourself and your loved ones.

Against what does a security camera protect you? I understand for a business that can afford a human being monitoring the feed, it offers protection by reducing response time to potential threats. But for individuals? I thought it was about justice, not protection. Or did you mean as a deterrent? Which is fair enough (although a fake camera would achieve the same)

It can be all of that and more. And in my case, if someone breaks into your house and steals your stuff, the police will not care because you don't have any evidence. And then your insurance doesn't believe you either and threatens to drop you.

And if someone is trespassing and about to commit a crime, you can be notified (yes even as an individual, with your own private self-hosted solutions even) immediately so that you can call police or deal with it however you want, especially if you're not home.

Re: Show HN: Open-source private home security camera system (end-to-end encryption)

#164

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

Klonoar wrote: post #149
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dashcams (including bikecams and helmetcams) are a great idea and AFAIK there's not much of a privacy concern with them as they record to local storage and usually in a common video standard (e.g. mp4). Hopefully as more people use them, there should be more chance of video footage being available from other vehicles if you're involved in a RTC and don't have one yourself. There's also the protective effect of people…

A number of dash cams now use cloud storage. If anything, when I last purchased I had to go out of my way to find one with decent enough video that also stays local.

That's surprising - I would guess that cloud storage would add to the price of them as they'd need a mobile data connection and presumably monthly costs. They must be designed for fleet management where you don't necessarily trust the driver to not delete footage.

Re: Show HN: Open-source private home security camera system (end-to-end encryption)

#165

Post by mattlondon »

xyst wrote: post #109
mattlondon wrote: post #44

Having had cameras and a couple of breakin attempts for a while now my biggest must-have for these sort of things is: - reliable human detection (not just motion) - integration via some sort of API or MQTT etc. This project appears to have no "smarts" in terms of human detection nor APIs which is a shame. Just pure motion detection on its own is ok, but you're going to pick up all sorts of things that you don't care…

> But the second a human steps into my garden and starts approaching the house in the night, all the perimeter floodlights are activated, in-house lights turn on, a fake-yet-loud barking dog MP3 starts playing and I get pushover notifications on my phone that won't stop until I ACK them etc (to wake me up). Wow this setup seems like overkill for a residential setup. I have lived in “bad” neighborhoods before and have…

Yeah I didn't feel the need either until I had two small kids and multiple attempts of people to break-in whilst your 2 year old daughter is asleep upstairs etc.

I actually live in a nice neighborhood and this is the problem I think. I am not especially wealthy, but a lot of people in this area are (and not just a bit wealthy, but like absurdly ferarri-owning excess etc). So while crime generally in this area is low, breakins and robbery is unfortunately high.

I am working on the "run faster than the other person when escaping from a bear" approach. Visible deterrents, then more "active" deterrent in terms of automated lights and dog sounds etc, a solid physical security in the hope that they just try to break in to someone else instead.

Re: Show HN: Open-source private home security camera system (end-to-end encryption)

#166

Post by arrdalan »

SahAssar wrote: post #161
arrdalan wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The end-to-end encryption part is clear IMO: it's between the hub and the app, both of which are trusted. This is different from an untrusted server decrypting the messages.

The point of end-to-end encryption to me is that I don't need to have a trusted intermediary (in this case the hub). Anyway, either way it's probably good to include something about how the traffic between the camera and the hub is completely plaintext and unencrypted and includes the password to the camera (unless I'm missing something), so even in your model it's not just the hub that is an additional point that ne…

I have mentioned the unencrypted traffic between the camera and hub here: https://github.com/privastead/privastead/blob/main/HOW_TO.md (Step 4, second paragraph)

Re: Show HN: Open-source private home security camera system (end-to-end encryption)

#167

Post by arrdalan »

scottlamb wrote: post #159
arrdalan wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, which question did I miss?

The question of "What is the purpose of introducing the untrusted "server" component?". Looks like you've since replied to this, but it wasn't here or I didn't see it when I dropped the parent comment. The reply also doesn't compare alternatives such as direct use of an object store API. I've fielded a lot of user support questions about installation and would really hesitate to add that extra moving part if it's not…

Yes, we have different approaches/designs. In fact, I don't even of think of Privastead as an NVR solution. The choice of using a hub is mainly because I didn't have control of the camera firmware. As I've mentioned in other comments, if I could, I'd move the hub logic to directly run inside the camera.

And my main comparison has been with security camera solutions that use their cloud solution to transfer videos (e.g., Ring). I think an open source solution that uses MLS and treats the cloud as fully untrusted is a superior alternative.

Regarding the multi-user support: yes, that's on the to-do list. A nice aspect of MLS is the notion of groups that it provides. In Privastead, each camera will have a separate MLS group and it could add multiple devices/smartphones to the group. The hub will then try to deliver the video to all devices in the group. Many aspects of the multi-user support still needs to be figured out, but it's technically feasible.

Regarding ffmpeg: I agree. I'm aware of it and I have it in my to-do list to replace that with a Rust-based implementation. In fact, I'll be looking into your retina library as one potential replacement. :-)

Re: Show HN: Open-source private home security camera system (end-to-end encryption)

#168

Post by goodpoint »

INTPenis wrote: post #103
goodpoint wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's a realistic use-case for secure boot on a camera? It's such a corner case...

A friend discovered it when he was wanting to monitor his datacenter and considering local security. A situation where someone has access to your DC and could theoretically erase images of them being there since they also have local access to your cameras.

secure boot does not solve such problem.

Re: Show HN: Open-source private home security camera system (end-to-end encryption)

#169

Post by krisoft »

yieldcrv wrote: post #143
krisoft wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of video, what if our bodies and property emitted points clouds all the time If instead of practical and widely available technologies we are discussing scifi concepts which have no realistic prospect of materialising then why not wish for a force field impervious to trucks? Or even better, lets skip the whole middleman and wish for point to point teleportation for all cargo eliminating all dangers and exte…

because I believe there is a realistic prospect of materializing and it would increase accountability for many actions where its currently impossible even with the burgeoning ubiquity of video

Please tell us more. How do you imagine what do you say being possible?

Re: Show HN: Open-source private home security camera system (end-to-end encryption)

#170

Post by INTPenis »

goodpoint wrote: post #168
INTPenis wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend discovered it when he was wanting to monitor his datacenter and considering local security. A situation where someone has access to your DC and could theoretically erase images of them being there since they also have local access to your cameras.

secure boot does not solve such problem.

Don't leave me hanging there, you have to elaborate.
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