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Lies, Damn Lies and LIBOR

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101–110 of 140 posts

Re: Lies, Damn Lies and LIBOR

#101
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are hundreds of trillions of dollars of derivates tied to the LIBOR. If the LIBOR moves 0.01% it translates to shifts in billions of dollars around the globe. Fixing the LIBOR is one of the (if not the) biggest thefts in history. Free-market capitalism is a joke. Deregulation and corporate socialism has led to a dysfunctional society ruled by a kleptocratic elite.

What deregulation? The financial industry is the most heavily regulated industry save medicine. The problem is there are too many regulations - banking regulations are so complex only the bankers understand them, which is the basis of the revolving door between banks and government regulating agencies. Too much regulation gives companies as much freedom as too little.

Since you are getting downvoted, a quick point - the reduction of regulations was what helped create the crisis - removal of glass steagal in 1999 in particular.

Re: Lies, Damn Lies and LIBOR

#102
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Full disclosure: I worked on a Magnetar trade; not the one that was in the press, but another deal basically identical. And I bought, sold and analyzed Abacus. All of these transactions are explicitly caveat emptor. My grandma couldn't go out and buy a piece of ABACUS 2007-ACA; sales are restricted to "qualified investors". Of course we all know that's basically meaningless, at least the assumption that "qualified in…

Well said. I'm an ex-quant, and one thing that is supremely irritating about discussions of Abacus is the inability of people to distinguish between acting as a fiduciary and acting as a market maker. When a counterparty calls GS up for a quote on the JPY/USD cross, they don't care one iota what GS's internal positioning is, or where GS thinks the JPY/USD will be in 3mths time, or any other number of things. These ar…

The OP did point out that even the "qualified investors" had no clue what they were doing. Just to make sure we both read it the same way.

Also, and correct me If I am wrong - you've moved to discussing a quote from GS for a product (JPY/USD cross to be specific), and not CDOs in particular.

This is in order to point out that:

GS has no fiduciary duties to the buyer

This point is reiterated in your last line as well - no one is to blame if you made a bad trade, other than yourself.

So in essence, you are arguing caveat emptor - correct?

Re: Lies, Damn Lies and LIBOR

#103
Here's a thought: : if you have a LIBOR-linked mortgage with Barclays, you could probably cease repayments, report the bank to credit rating agencies and and sue them for contractual misrepresentation.

Re: Lies, Damn Lies and LIBOR

#104
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are hundreds of trillions of dollars of derivates tied to the LIBOR. If the LIBOR moves 0.01% it translates to shifts in billions of dollars around the globe. Fixing the LIBOR is one of the (if not the) biggest thefts in history. Free-market capitalism is a joke. Deregulation and corporate socialism has led to a dysfunctional society ruled by a kleptocratic elite.

> Fixing the LIBOR is one of the (if not the) biggest thefts in history. Except they've basically stolen from themselves. The vast majority of libor fixing was downwards. Loans they've made that pay libor-linked rates thus pay lower - so the bank earns less interest. The lowballing of libor doesn't (or didn't) affect the actual rate at which banks could fund/borrow, so net the banks lose. Libor was low-balled to pain…

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/07/10/business/dealb...

Re: Lies, Damn Lies and LIBOR

#105
post #103

Here's a thought: : if you have a LIBOR-linked mortgage with Barclays, you could probably cease repayments, report the bank to credit rating agencies and and sue them for contractual misrepresentation.

> if you have a LIBOR-linked mortgage with Barclays,

They all did it. Barclays were the last bank to start doing it, and the first to confess.

Re: Lies, Damn Lies and LIBOR

#106
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free-market capitalism is a joke. To paraphrase Churchill: It has been said that free-market capitalism is the worst economic model except all the others that have been tried. You use the word "deregulation", yet thousands of pages of new regulations are churned out each year by the Federal government... when 1 or 2 pages are repealed, we hear "They're deregulating!". Any look at the regulations being emitted from…

With deregulation I don't mean the lack of regulatory laws. It's not about the quantity here, it's about the QUALITY of the regulatory framework. What good are thousands of pages of "regulatory" law when they are filled with loop holes? In fact these monstrous laws are perfect for the big corporations, their lobbyists and lawyers. These people live for this. Heck, they even often write the laws themselves! Have a loo…

Nah, I don't disagree with anything you said.

I guess what I don't understand is your connection between "Free Market Capitalism is a joke" and the true statements above. A bunch of companies writing laws isn't Capitalism. It's Cronyism and Corporatism.

It's a direct result of investing too much power in the government to control things since there are no real protections to keep the government from being corrupted by anyone with some money.

It's one thing to have a powerful corporation that dominates a marketplace. That can make it uncomfortable when you're looking for an alternative product or service. It's quite another thing when powerful corporations write the laws. In that case, we're screwed since the guys with the tanks no longer allow us any choices but to fall in line.

Re: Lies, Damn Lies and LIBOR

#107
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those questions where a rebuttal and an explanation would be extremely long, and would also have to work against your biases/beliefs. I hope someone more eloquent than me comes along. In short it's a complicated matter, with tough constraints. For one, yes banks do concentrate wealth a lot more than Facebook and google. HFT/prop desks/Cdo desks and the firms PE and IB arms are extremely well paid. They…

Full disclosure: I worked on a Magnetar trade; not the one that was in the press, but another deal basically identical. And I bought, sold and analyzed Abacus. All of these transactions are explicitly caveat emptor. My grandma couldn't go out and buy a piece of ABACUS 2007-ACA; sales are restricted to "qualified investors". Of course we all know that's basically meaningless, at least the assumption that "qualified in…

Hey ! Nice to run into someone who actually worked on Magnetar.

At this point I've spent a lot(!) of time trying to express my thoughts, but it keeps over expanding once I start discussing or thinking about social proof and the Salesman analogy -

Let me see if I can create a framework, or at least tease a few distinct strands apart.

1) Qualified Investors: I tend to agree, it seems not many investors know whats going on in the things/CDOs they expose themselves to. Its a word which carries a legacy meaning that I think needs to be updated, or at least "Qualified Investor" should stop meaning "Patsy".

2) The Car Salesman analogy. If it is describing an ideal of where we should reach, then I think we agree - yes buyers should have genuine ability to decipher the complexity/accurately asses the security. They should have genuine choice between them and other banks. They should not suffer information asymmetries.

This means that we have, at the very least, working rating agencies, strong regulators to enforce rules and break up abuse, among many other prereqs.

3) Social proof - I am not satisfied with my arguments/ability to put it across but here is a rough draft -

Social proof should be working but its not. There are probably a constellation of reasons for this likely - Lack of choice/competitors in major banks, network and reputation effects enjoyed by the big banks, talent asymmetry, information asymmetry, regulatory capture/weakening.

Social proof, for that people have to have a choice between trustworthy and less trust worthy banks. If all banks are tarnished, then the choice is irrelevant. You end up choosing between different levels of competence and equal levels of avarice. All the car salesman are out to get you, maybe go for a scooter.

There are honestly far too many ways to approach this analogy/point and I would love to get away from it.

4) Finally in your last para you are essentially saying "Caveat emptor".

Come now.

Caveat emptor right now ends up ignoring wall street attitudes, obvious and even proven(! "can you imagine the idiots got caught") malfeasance, industry acceptance of morally agnostic standards, constant and now expected abuse of information/talent/power asymmetries.

I think you will also agree that the letter of the law is seen often as an obstacle course that people have to find the shortest path through. Heck the sheer artistry and creativity in the financial instruments being created is impressive. How many times have you come across a structure and said - wow, nice way to get out of that restriction.

I liken wall streeters to hackers - they like finding imaginative ways they can make their bets. They just don't see it in a moral sense. Its about optimum paths and optimum outcomes. If you plan wrong, you suffer. Your punitive lessons are your losses. The strong survive.

Ok I need a break, I really am hesitant to put this out there, because I can see a few angles of attack, which are arising from an overlap between different portions of finance and because I've generalized/glossed over details in some places. This was done in the interest of not getting too focused/bogged down. Probably needs to be addressed though.

Re: Lies, Damn Lies and LIBOR

#108
post #88
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the ultimate purpose of a business is to make money" No. The proximate purpose of a business is to make money. It's a means to the end: the ultimate purpose of businesses are to improve human well being.

No, actually, the purpose of a business is to make money. That's why it's created , after all. Now, businesses do bring benefits to society, on the whole, but that's not why they exist.

Business owner here. The purpose of a business is to do whatever the business owners want it to do.

Re: Lies, Damn Lies and LIBOR

#109
post #18

Real life dwarfs gaming. Remember the recent EVE exploit? Someone discovered that it was possible to pump prices of low liquidity goods, pack ships with said goods, destroy the ships and score an unusually high LP, due to the artificialy inflated "value" of those goods. The underlying mechanism is the same - someone ties some kind of payout to a market price. Then someone other discovers that th price is not somethin…

I' still surprised the SEC doesn't actively try to game the system. I mean we all know that we aren't dealing with the worlds best people, why not try to play the psycopath game ourselves?

They do. It is called the "revolving door". After a few years, most senior SEC staff go on to work in the banks they are supposed to regulate.

Re: Lies, Damn Lies and LIBOR

#110
post #103

Here's a thought: : if you have a LIBOR-linked mortgage with Barclays, you could probably cease repayments, report the bank to credit rating agencies and and sue them for contractual misrepresentation.

> if you have a LIBOR-linked mortgage with Barclays, They all did it. Barclays were the last bank to start doing it, and the first to confess.

So far, only Barclays, Citigroup, RBS, UBS AG, ICAP, Lloydsand Deutsche Bank are being investiagted.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-07-09/libor-criminal-p...

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