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If not React, then what?

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Re: If not React, then what?

#111

Post by baobabKoodaa »

dariusj18 wrote: post #107
baobabKoodaa wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah? And when will that happen? Because people have been throwing this argument at me since at least 2014. I still haven't slipped on a banana peel and accidentally fallen on a homegrown framework. You don't just create a framework by accident.

I don't have any context, but I do have trouble imagining that any of your projects have scale/complexity above brochure-ware if you haven't run into this.

If you have trouble imagining, here's one such project: https://github.com/baobabKoodaa/ouija

Re: If not React, then what?

#112

Post by goodoldneon »

pier25 wrote: post #108
dimgl wrote: post #4

> Frameworkism isn't delivering. It isn't? I find React to be great to work with.

If React is so great how come Amazon isn't using it in their store? I think last year an Amazon frontend engineer wrote some tweets explaining they tried React and it was too slow. So they keep using Java for SSR and sprinkle vanilla JS. They were still using jQuery until a couple of years ago and probably still are in some parts of their site.

Do not base your company’s tech decisions on FAANG companies unless your company is a FAANG company. Your challenges are likely very different from theirs

Re: If not React, then what?

#113

Post by refulgentis »

jmye wrote: post #70
rafaelmn wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity I checked on iPhone 14/4g and 2018 Intel MBP. I don't get what the point of these comments is ? If you're using RPI with a 2g connection you'll have a bad experience shopping at the site ? And somehow that's supposed to factor in to my tech stack decisions ?

Do you not care about most of your potential customers, or do you only cater to high net worth people? If so, then sure, substandard devices and connections can be ignored. If you’re Target, on the other hand, you probably shouldn’t ignore them. I find it extremely odd that this was even a question on this site. Do you think the problem you’re solving should impact your tech stack at all, or is your tech stack more i…

You're making the same mistake as the author. I get unnecessarily aggro too, but a plain reading of their comment isn't "they only cater to high net worth people" or they're advocating for such. Its "hey we're talking about 3G connections at this point, which are mostly shut down, and we don't cover developing markets"

Note most of this is nonsensical too.

His primary thing is "you don't need client side code because JS = (HTML + CSS) * x, where X >= 1"

We can start sneering about not caring about users there, too, having a one time client side download of that magnitude can certainly be much better on the poors than 10 page loads with SSR.

Re: If not React, then what?

#114

Post by oliwarner »

pier25 wrote: post #102
oliwarner wrote: post #96

> React developers are web developers. This has felt increasingly untrue recently. I hope I'm just experiencing the peak of the bell curve but I've been bumping into more and more devs who only have experience in SPA React and associated styling frameworks. Ask them to actually style something and they flake out. I was used to some tribalism in backends (everyone thinks theirs in the best and equally hates PHP devs a…

It's not recent. We've had memes for years about React devs using divs with click events instead of using links.

No, but five, ten years ago that wasn't the average "junior web dev" outlook. There was diversity in experience and education.

Big money FAANG posts have really distilled the market down.

Maybe I'm just an oldfart. When I started a quarter of a century ago, people were crowing about Frontpage experience. I'm fairly sure I'd boasted about Macromedia Dreamweaver 3 expertise. And there was an explosion of technologies being thrown around between different devs. But now you don't get to discriminate against bad technology if the market demands it.

Re: If not React, then what?

#115

Post by quantadev »

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #98
quantadev wrote: post #20

The people who don't think React (or Vue) is important are the same ones who have never worked on a large project with lots of screen updates and state changes that absolutely cannot be avoided. React is still #1 in popularity, and the most crucial tool for almost any web developer (aside from using TypeScript, instead of plain JS which is also critical for large projects) React is reported to be used by 39.5% of dev…

> React is reported to be used by 39.5% of developers worldwide, while Vue.js is at 15.4%. The number of "apps" using just HTML+CSS is precisely zero, because those aren't "apps" they're documents. The options you present are: "either use a JS framework or don't use JavaScript at all". That's a false dichotomy. I've built plenty of interactive apps with JavaScript without using frameworks.

For any large project you need type-safe languages. 99% of experience developers (10+ years of experience) will agree with this opinion.

Sure you can develop very large projects in JS, as long as you don't mind being 1% as efficient, and having 100x more bugs. In JS, refactoring a huge project is the biggest nightmare in the world and really no human is capable of doing a great job of it in a reasonable time, even if they have a high IQ and decades of experience.

Re: If not React, then what?

#116

Post by quantadev »

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #111
dariusj18 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any context, but I do have trouble imagining that any of your projects have scale/complexity above brochure-ware if you haven't run into this.

If you have trouble imagining, here's one such project: https://github.com/baobabKoodaa/ouija

Even if you know of massive projects in JS, the problem isn't that they cannot exist, it's that maintaining them takes 100x the manpower it would in TypeScript.

Re: If not React, then what?

#117

Post by quantadev »

cyann wrote: post #86
quantadev wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I said "(or Vue)" was specifically to say that there are other leading frameworks. I didn't say "or Angluar" because in my opinion it's a race between React and Vue at this point. But if you think there's a third contender, let me know. I'm always looking to learn. My main point was to compare "frameworks" v.s. "no frameworks", rather than to say that React is best, but if you want my opinion then yes I do…

Angluar -> I'm using this from now on

In case I was unclear, I consider Angular dead and obsolete.

Re: If not React, then what?

#118

Post by quantadev »

mollerhoj wrote: post #91
quantadev wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I said "(or Vue)" was specifically to say that there are other leading frameworks. I didn't say "or Angluar" because in my opinion it's a race between React and Vue at this point. But if you think there's a third contender, let me know. I'm always looking to learn. My main point was to compare "frameworks" v.s. "no frameworks", rather than to say that React is best, but if you want my opinion then yes I do…

Have you ever worked on a project that used Rails, Laravel, Django or Spring? Without being a SPA? For many (most) websites, I find that these are far superior to client side heavy SPAs with json apis (react, vue etc).

Most of the apps I've worked on were very business oriented, and about people getting work done, rather than "website" type stuff that's mostly static. So for example, being able to refresh a part of the screen with new information from the server, is critical. Doing page reloads would destroy the experience. I have 35yrs exp so yes I've used most of what you mentioned.

Re: If not React, then what?

#119

Post by quantadev »

thunky wrote: post #105
quantadev wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> can look like Yeah, but it ain't. lol.

It's easy for developers to forget who the "app" is actually for. Users don't care how it was implemented or how nice the code looks, they just want it to work.

Right. That's precisely why full page reloads/updates every time some action is done (mouse click for example) would be completely unacceptable for most apps I've worked on. I've worked mostly on apps not websites.

Re: If not React, then what?

#120

Post by cyann »

quantadev wrote: post #117
cyann wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Angluar -> I'm using this from now on

In case I was unclear, I consider Angular dead and obsolete.

Same, anGLuar sounds, for a french speaker, like https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/engluer

1. to birdlime

2. (reflexive) to get bogged down

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